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DA12 coming some details

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

DA12 coming some details

Old 12-03-20, 12:19 PM
  #101  
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Originally Posted by wgscott
It is not an analogy. Both Linux and MacOSX (or 11) are unix operating systems. OS X is more closely related to BSD unix, but they are rather more similar than different.

Windows is quite different.

If you want to invoke superficial visual similarities (the windows GUI is based on a variant of the X11 windowing system that Linux uses -- and which, incidently, also works perfectly fine on OS X), feel free, but it is like creating phylogenetics based on organism color rather than DNA sequences.
I thought that popcorn might come in handy.
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Old 12-03-20, 12:20 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by wgscott
It is not an analogy. Both Linux and MacOSX (or 11) are unix operating systems. OS X is more closely related to BSD unix, but they are rather more similar than different.

Windows is quite different.

If you want to invoke superficial visual similarities (the windows GUI is based on a variant of the X11 windowing system that Linux uses -- and which, incidently, also works perfectly fine on OS X), feel free, but it is like creating phylogenetics based on organism color rather than DNA sequences.
So to be clear, in your world, if I said "I like cats and dogs as pets, but wouldn't want a tiger" you'd respond "you don't understand animals, tigers are more closely-related to cats than dogs"? Cool, cool.
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Old 12-03-20, 12:30 PM
  #103  
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Rim brakes are really easy to adjust for me. Close the releases first. Take 2 washers, put them between the pads/brake tracks, squeeze the caliper and tighten the cable holder. The thickness of the washers determine how much play you want in your lever before the pads engage. I like some play in my levers so I can get my fingers around them while feathering on descents. I use nickels as the washers. If you don't like much play, you can use pennies, dimes or something thinner.

I don't know about disc systems.
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Old 12-03-20, 12:50 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by seypat
I don't know about disc systems.
With hydraulic systems, the gap between the pads and rotors self-adjusts and isn't user adjustable. There's no toe-in or anything like that when you replace pads - you simply push in the pistons, remove the old pads, put in the new pads and give the lever a few squeezes to re-position the new pads once the wheel is back in. It takes a screwdriver and so little time that it's not worth cracking open a bike maintenance beer.

Free stroke (lever travel before engagement) can be adjusted on some levers (generally Ultegra level and above).
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Old 12-03-20, 01:02 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Free stroke
See now if you led with that, people would be a lot more open to disc brakes.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:08 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
See now if you led with that, people would be a lot more open to disc brakes.
It was one of the reasons that I went with Ultegra vs 105, but I've never adjusted it nor felt the need. It just works.™
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Old 12-03-20, 01:12 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
It was one of the reasons that I went with Ultegra vs 105, but I've never adjusted it nor felt the need. It just works.™
No reaction? Nothing? I’ll see myself out.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:13 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
So to be clear, in your world, if I said "I like cats and dogs as pets, but wouldn't want a tiger" you'd respond "you don't understand animals, tigers are more closely-related to cats than dogs"? Cool, cool.
I thought you wanted to be clear.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:23 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by wgscott
I thought you wanted to be clear.
I do. In fact, I clearly said I “liked” Windows and Linux better than garbage OSX. You then decided that OSX lazily having a BSD kernel (because Apple was too cheap and incompetent to make their own that didn’t suck) meant that someone couldn’t subjectively hate its interface and behavior and decided to show off your knowledge. Then you’ve been trying to save face since with a variety of irrelevant points.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:24 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
No reaction? Nothing? I’ll see myself out.
I shooed away my initial thought as I have a tendency to see juvenile allusions where they don't exist. I guess I should just go with my instincts.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:49 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
\ You then decided that OSX lazily having a BSD kernel (because Apple was too cheap and incompetent to make their own that didn’t suck)
mmm ok

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mach_(kernel)
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Old 12-03-20, 01:54 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by wgscott
You'll really grasp at any straw to avoid having to say "yeah, it's ok to not like OSX" won't you?
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Old 12-03-20, 01:56 PM
  #113  
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I'm shopping for a new computer. I haven't yet decided on Windows or Mac, but wanted opinions on whether I should get a disc drive or a rim drive, and if there is an advantage to getting an electric processor versus a mechanical processor.
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Old 12-03-20, 01:59 PM
  #114  
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Either way, you need to make sure to get a chair with a hydraulic dropper. I hear that's going to be the big new thing.
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Old 12-03-20, 02:07 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by Bah Humbug
You'll really grasp at any straw to avoid having to say "yeah, it's ok to not like OSX" won't you?
It is fine not to like OS X (I'm getting there myself). I also don't like 12 speeds.

I was responding to a comment someone made about Windows and Linux being more similar to one another and OS X being the outlier. My comment came after your post, but it wasn't quoting you. Admittedly, I did think that is what you were saying, or at least agreeing with.

As for hydraulic brakes, there does seem to be a similar misunderstanding to your corrupted history-induced kernel panic response. (Richard Stallman had to to get Linus Tovarlds to write a kernel for GNU-Linux because he couldn't do it.)

Last edited by Cyclist0108; 12-03-20 at 02:11 PM.
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Old 12-03-20, 04:20 PM
  #116  
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Originally Posted by HTupolev
I place a "sort of" qualifier on that. It's very easy to get rim brakes to do something that vaguely resembles correct operation. But setting them up to work well can be elusive. Pad choice, geometry of pad and caliper placement, housing and cable choice and prep, housing routing... all things that cyclists and mechanics frequently do sub-optimally.
It's a pretty short checklist for rim brakes: minimise all sources of friction, sponginess and slop, make sure pads are clean and well aligned, adjust to taste.

BTW, I'm only referring to road disc in this thread; first item on that checklist is to ensure flat mount faces are in spec, and fixing that if it's out (let alone realising it needs checking) is non-trivial for most. Been burnt on that one a couple of times {Giant, Focus), so I'm pretty sour on a development that requires finer tolerances that can be reliably achieved. You'd expect those two companies would be able to nail something that critical, but evidently not.
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Old 12-03-20, 06:59 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
There was a thread recently about Di2 where a surprising number of Di2 owners said their electronic bikes didn't shift any or much better than their mechanical bikes. Most of them said they wouldn't go back for other reasons. Anyway you said you were in a very small minority about shift quality and I don't think that's true. My last Ultegra (mech) bike shifted perfectly too. Maybe we need a new thread with a poll.
I just started using my first Di2 bike after years and years of mechanical.

It is certainly more precise. But I've got a lifetime of getting my fingers used to that physical feedback and I really miss it. For the all precision of Di2, you don't get that same feedback of knowing that the shift has gone well or not. Want to tell me that it "always goes well". Nope. No it does not. And the synchro-shift? Oh man. The first time Di2 tried to do that for me, it pissed me off. The next 100 times were the same. Finally I went to "full manual" mode, I found that Shimano had decided its not really full manual at all. They call it "Gear Protection Control". "I'm sorry, we don't like you cross-chaining in this situation so we're simply not going to let you do that unless you flat-out lie to us in the software and pretend you're running a crank that you're not really running".

Good grief.

Yeah it's "better". Except when it isn't. Then it sucks. Still I can live with the benefits. But if I were choosing again, I'd pick mechanical always for road bikes and leave the Di2 to my TT bike
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Old 12-03-20, 07:38 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Kimmo
Or maybe, a sensible paradigm where you can get stuff done with the mouse, instead of having to bust out a command line shell...?
One of the great things about Windows is you can get almost everything done with the keyboard that you can do with a mouse, and through the same UI. To people like you and me that's really not a big deal, but if you don't have the motor control to use a mouse (like if you have multiple sclerosis) you need to work with computers if you're going to work at all, it's not like you can stock shelves.
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Old 12-03-20, 07:44 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
With hydraulic systems, the gap between the pads and rotors self-adjusts and isn't user adjustable. There's no toe-in or anything like that when you replace pads - you simply push in the pistons, remove the old pads, put in the new pads and give the lever a few squeezes to re-position the new pads once the wheel is back in. It takes a screwdriver and so little time that it's not worth cracking open a bike maintenance beer.

Free stroke (lever travel before engagement) can be adjusted on some levers (generally Ultegra level and above).
​​​​​​First part is true, second part is a horrible rumor. Thinking about bike maintenance earns you that beer.
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Old 12-03-20, 07:45 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
One of the great things about Windows is you can get almost everything done with the keyboard that you can do with a mouse, and through the same UI. To people like you and me that's really not a big deal, but if you don't have the motor control to use a mouse (like if you have multiple sclerosis) you need to work with computers if you're going to work at all, it's not like you can stock shelves.
It's also very handy when you have an iffy touchpad, or a broken mouse, or...

It's really just good design to not depend on a mouse.
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Old 12-05-20, 08:59 AM
  #121  
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I switched from 25 years with Campy to SRAM AXS this year. I run mine in full manual mode, which does allow the big/big to be used. I do set a 2 sprocket limit when holding the shift lever down. Their sequential or compensating shift modes can cause chain drops and unwanted shifts. I don't miss the shift lever feel. With small hands, the shifts to larger sprockets are easier to make. All shifts from the drops are easier to make. I do miss the thumb button sometimes. No pinky shifts from the tops.
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Old 12-05-20, 04:27 PM
  #122  
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Discs are coming like it or not. And not because it is what the pros want. Or what knowledgeable enthusiasts believe to be true. Or that braking performance is better. Of that they are safer. Or they allow carbon rims to be lighter. Or that they extend rim life. Or work better in the wet. Or are better for larger guys. Etc. etc. etc...

The real reason is that the industry wants to make money. The best way they make the most money is to get us to buy bikes. Not parts. Bikes.

You can't upgrade from rim brakes to disc brakes. You have to buy an entire bike. (yeah yeah, I know you can go with a new fork and one of those dorky disc brake adapters, but I doubt anyone reading this would ever consider that option).
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Old 12-05-20, 05:15 PM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Rocket-Sauce
Discs are coming like it or not. And not because it is what the pros want. Or what knowledgeable enthusiasts believe to be true. Or that braking performance is better. Of that they are safer. Or they allow carbon rims to be lighter. Or that they extend rim life. Or work better in the wet. Or are better for larger guys. Etc. etc. etc...

The real reason is that the industry wants to make money. The best way they make the most money is to get us to buy bikes. Not parts. Bikes.

You can't upgrade from rim brakes to disc brakes. You have to buy an entire bike. (yeah yeah, I know you can go with a new fork and one of those dorky disc brake adapters, but I doubt anyone reading this would ever consider that option).
Whoa, what a novel hot-take.
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Old 12-05-20, 05:20 PM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Whoa, what a novel hot-take.
Thanks. I do my best to try and point out what everyone already knows.
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Old 12-05-20, 05:38 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by Rocket-Sauce
Discs are coming like it or not. And not because it is what the pros want. Or what knowledgeable enthusiasts believe to be true. Or that braking performance is better. Of that they are safer. Or they allow carbon rims to be lighter. Or that they extend rim life. Or work better in the wet. Or are better for larger guys. Etc. etc. etc...

The real reason is that the industry wants to make money. The best way they make the most money is to get us to buy bikes. Not parts. Bikes.

You can't upgrade from rim brakes to disc brakes. You have to buy an entire bike. (yeah yeah, I know you can go with a new fork and one of those dorky disc brake adapters, but I doubt anyone reading this would ever consider that option).
Everybody I know that has switched to disc brakes was going to buy a new bike anyway. So, the bike company was going to make money regardless of what type of brakes were on the bike.
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