Vintage Trek 412
07-30-20, 03:40 PM
#26
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^^^^ All the more reason that the 27" restriction is such a limiting factor.
07-30-20, 05:44 PM
#27
Full Member
I wouldn't consider 27" a restriction, a quick look at my catalog here and I see three ready built 27" wheelsets, prices range from $99 for a cheap Chinese steel set, to just over $200. There are no 700C road wheelsets below $250.
What I see as the middle or upper priced 27" set would be fine on just about any 27" bike, either would be at least equal to what it came with, although the upper end set is likely spaced at 135mm. The two upper sets use Sun rims, the one at $220 lists CR18 rims, the other doesn't specify.
The original wheelset on an early Trek 412 was usually Rigida 1320 rims with early, adjustable cone Sunshine Gyro low flange hubs, but I agree, during those days, substitutions when it came to various components was common due to high demand. Most bikes advertised the rear derailleur model, but many didn't specify the front. I also suppose manufacturers selling a bike to the masses likely would shy away from ultra light fragile parts. (Several aluminum cage front derailleurs come to mind off hand).
The Rigida 1320 was a soft rim, it wasn't a bad rim but there were lots of better choices back then for a bike that was likely going to be ridden on your average road here. I can't speak for all parts of the country, but most of the roads where I road back around that time were a mix between dirt, loose gravel, and oil and stone pavement. Only the main highways were concrete or smooth asphalt. It wasn't until the mid 80's or so when they started ripping up the oiled base roads and putting down smooth asphalt.
If you ever road on oil and stone roads, he know how hard it is to ride on, and how many flats it causes. The chipped stone they put down was at first like riding on loose gravel, then once it packed down, it was rough with lots of tiny sharp rocks embedded in the road. Narrow, high pressure tires didn't stand a chance. The problem nowadays is that many of those road that were paved with asphalt in the 80's are now in really bad shape, with lots of pot holes, lumpy patches, and open cracks.
A bike running an inch wide tire doesn't stand a chance. .
Years ago we replaced several of those Rigida rims every week for cracks, lost spoke eyelets, flat spots and even sidewall blow out. They weren't rim that instilled confidence when you pumped up a 1" tire to 135 psi. They also weren't a good choice for a larger rider. Very few bike owners wanted us to replace them with the same rim.
The 412 wasn't a low end model, it was just Trek's lowest cost model. By 1980, Trek had dropped its entry level models and for a while the 512 was the lowest cost bike they had. A guy who wanted a 'cheap' bike didn't go looking at a Trek, they bought Columbia, Ross, Nishiki, or any of the steel wheel Japanese bikes that were around then. The 412 was a good bike, I never remember any issues with that frame and thousands were sold. It was an excellent riding bike in that the geometry was a bit more relaxed and occasional riders took well to it. A group that likely accounted for likely 99% of all bike sales back then. I can count on one hand how many guys came in who were 'serious' riders back then, most were just buying a bike to ride, color and style meant more than form and function. The shop I was at back then sold a slew of brands, Trek was just one many. We likely sold 200 cheap, steel wheel Peugeot A08 or U08 bikes to every one Trek. Even Ross and Columbia out sold Trek. It wasn't a reflection on Trek, but it did show how people thought and spent their cash. Most didn't care if it said Trek or anything else on the headbadge so long as it had drop bars and looked good. Trek bikes that were on the floor ready to sell often sat there for weeks or months before that one person came in the door who wanted at better bike, then the problem was that those same people tended to look right past Trek, a new comer back then, and go for the upper end Raleigh or Motobecane for a few more dollars. Trek hadn't made a name for itself yet so there wasn't a huge cult following back in those days. So like many of the lesser known brands, they were a bit slower moving when it came to sales. As they gained recognition and a few magazines took notice sales become more frequent. Most of us never thought they would survive back in the day. If brands like Raleigh, Motobecane, Schwinn, and Peugeot hadn't faltered so bad in later years, I'm not so sure Trek would have become the well known brand there did.
What I see as the middle or upper priced 27" set would be fine on just about any 27" bike, either would be at least equal to what it came with, although the upper end set is likely spaced at 135mm. The two upper sets use Sun rims, the one at $220 lists CR18 rims, the other doesn't specify.
The original wheelset on an early Trek 412 was usually Rigida 1320 rims with early, adjustable cone Sunshine Gyro low flange hubs, but I agree, during those days, substitutions when it came to various components was common due to high demand. Most bikes advertised the rear derailleur model, but many didn't specify the front. I also suppose manufacturers selling a bike to the masses likely would shy away from ultra light fragile parts. (Several aluminum cage front derailleurs come to mind off hand).
The Rigida 1320 was a soft rim, it wasn't a bad rim but there were lots of better choices back then for a bike that was likely going to be ridden on your average road here. I can't speak for all parts of the country, but most of the roads where I road back around that time were a mix between dirt, loose gravel, and oil and stone pavement. Only the main highways were concrete or smooth asphalt. It wasn't until the mid 80's or so when they started ripping up the oiled base roads and putting down smooth asphalt.
If you ever road on oil and stone roads, he know how hard it is to ride on, and how many flats it causes. The chipped stone they put down was at first like riding on loose gravel, then once it packed down, it was rough with lots of tiny sharp rocks embedded in the road. Narrow, high pressure tires didn't stand a chance. The problem nowadays is that many of those road that were paved with asphalt in the 80's are now in really bad shape, with lots of pot holes, lumpy patches, and open cracks.
A bike running an inch wide tire doesn't stand a chance. .
Years ago we replaced several of those Rigida rims every week for cracks, lost spoke eyelets, flat spots and even sidewall blow out. They weren't rim that instilled confidence when you pumped up a 1" tire to 135 psi. They also weren't a good choice for a larger rider. Very few bike owners wanted us to replace them with the same rim.
The 412 wasn't a low end model, it was just Trek's lowest cost model. By 1980, Trek had dropped its entry level models and for a while the 512 was the lowest cost bike they had. A guy who wanted a 'cheap' bike didn't go looking at a Trek, they bought Columbia, Ross, Nishiki, or any of the steel wheel Japanese bikes that were around then. The 412 was a good bike, I never remember any issues with that frame and thousands were sold. It was an excellent riding bike in that the geometry was a bit more relaxed and occasional riders took well to it. A group that likely accounted for likely 99% of all bike sales back then. I can count on one hand how many guys came in who were 'serious' riders back then, most were just buying a bike to ride, color and style meant more than form and function. The shop I was at back then sold a slew of brands, Trek was just one many. We likely sold 200 cheap, steel wheel Peugeot A08 or U08 bikes to every one Trek. Even Ross and Columbia out sold Trek. It wasn't a reflection on Trek, but it did show how people thought and spent their cash. Most didn't care if it said Trek or anything else on the headbadge so long as it had drop bars and looked good. Trek bikes that were on the floor ready to sell often sat there for weeks or months before that one person came in the door who wanted at better bike, then the problem was that those same people tended to look right past Trek, a new comer back then, and go for the upper end Raleigh or Motobecane for a few more dollars. Trek hadn't made a name for itself yet so there wasn't a huge cult following back in those days. So like many of the lesser known brands, they were a bit slower moving when it came to sales. As they gained recognition and a few magazines took notice sales become more frequent. Most of us never thought they would survive back in the day. If brands like Raleigh, Motobecane, Schwinn, and Peugeot hadn't faltered so bad in later years, I'm not so sure Trek would have become the well known brand there did.
07-30-20, 08:23 PM
#28
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Sorry for the sideways pic, but here’s the receipt for my Trek 412, purchased new in 1982.
07-31-20, 02:43 AM
#29
Newbie
Thread Starter
If you go by the inflation calculators online, that $390 is about $1200 in today's money.
I guess bike shops charged what they wanted back then, I do know there were big differences in prices between the big high volume shops in the city and the local shops. The big places were almost always cheaper but they weren't much on service or parts and if you bought there, the local shop wouldn't touch a bike bought somewhere else.
I went last night to see a bike I really didn't think was going to be worth my time, but for $400 cash I bought a Schwinn Varsity.
The guy used to own a Schwinn dealer years ago, he had 75 or so bikes there, all mint or near mint condition. The place was a shack in the middle nowhere. He was asking $600 in a local shopper paper but he let it go for less. It was kind of a strange place, way back down a back road and about half a mile off the road in the pines.
The Varsity is a 1974, its got original Schwinn Puff Gumwall tires in new condition, the original saddle, perfect chrome all over
and best of all its bright orange. The bike is a tad bit small for me, but the seat and stem can be raised enough to make it work. Besides, I won't likely ride it much, its more just to have then to ride. I wanted one of these since I was a kid. They were gone by the time I could afford one. Part of me still wants a Trek now though, this guy only had Schwinns.
The Trek was an easier riding bike, a lot lighter, probably by half or so. It also shifter nicer but I like the shifters up high like on this varsity. I can ride this without having to stretch and lean over to shift. I probably should have bought the Trek but I really wanted the Schwinn.
The paint looks faded in the pic but its actually bright and matches the bar wrap. My cell phone has problems with red tones for some reason:
I guess bike shops charged what they wanted back then, I do know there were big differences in prices between the big high volume shops in the city and the local shops. The big places were almost always cheaper but they weren't much on service or parts and if you bought there, the local shop wouldn't touch a bike bought somewhere else.
I went last night to see a bike I really didn't think was going to be worth my time, but for $400 cash I bought a Schwinn Varsity.
The guy used to own a Schwinn dealer years ago, he had 75 or so bikes there, all mint or near mint condition. The place was a shack in the middle nowhere. He was asking $600 in a local shopper paper but he let it go for less. It was kind of a strange place, way back down a back road and about half a mile off the road in the pines.
The Varsity is a 1974, its got original Schwinn Puff Gumwall tires in new condition, the original saddle, perfect chrome all over
and best of all its bright orange. The bike is a tad bit small for me, but the seat and stem can be raised enough to make it work. Besides, I won't likely ride it much, its more just to have then to ride. I wanted one of these since I was a kid. They were gone by the time I could afford one. Part of me still wants a Trek now though, this guy only had Schwinns.
The Trek was an easier riding bike, a lot lighter, probably by half or so. It also shifter nicer but I like the shifters up high like on this varsity. I can ride this without having to stretch and lean over to shift. I probably should have bought the Trek but I really wanted the Schwinn.
The paint looks faded in the pic but its actually bright and matches the bar wrap. My cell phone has problems with red tones for some reason:
07-31-20, 11:45 AM
#31
Senior Member
$400 for a Varsity? Seller saw you comin' from a mile away.
__________________
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770,'81 Merckx, '85 Centurion Cinelli, '85 Raleigh Portage, '92 RB-2, '09 Bianchi
My bikes: '81 Trek 957, '83 Trek 720, '85 Trek 500, '85 Trek 770,
07-31-20, 01:46 PM
#32
vintage rider
I've got tires from the 50's on a few balloon tire bikes that are still good. I don't see why a set of Schwinn tires couldn't survive from '74.
If they were kept out of the sun and stored where they at least somewhat protected they could still be fine.
I've bought more than a dozen new old stock bikes over the past 20 years, only one came out of the box with tires that were degraded, and those were only showing very minor cracks in the gumwalls. I've got several pair of vintage IRC and CST tires that I wrapped up and bagged in the mid to late 80's for future use that are still like brand new as well. I had gotten a deal on them and packed them away by wrapping each tire with plastic and bagging them in pairs. I vacuumed out the air, and boxed them up. I used a pair a few months ago they're like brand new. I think UV light and avoiding exposing them to ozone from running motors and such is a big key to getting rubber to last.
If they were kept out of the sun and stored where they at least somewhat protected they could still be fine.
I've bought more than a dozen new old stock bikes over the past 20 years, only one came out of the box with tires that were degraded, and those were only showing very minor cracks in the gumwalls. I've got several pair of vintage IRC and CST tires that I wrapped up and bagged in the mid to late 80's for future use that are still like brand new as well. I had gotten a deal on them and packed them away by wrapping each tire with plastic and bagging them in pairs. I vacuumed out the air, and boxed them up. I used a pair a few months ago they're like brand new. I think UV light and avoiding exposing them to ozone from running motors and such is a big key to getting rubber to last.
07-31-20, 03:46 PM
#33
Full Member
I think you all need to look around at what some of those old Schwinns are selling for these days, I sold a 23" Varsity a few months ago, it was ridable but not pretty and it went for $300. I put an ad up for $400 or Best Offer on FB, it was gone the same day. I could have sold a dozen of them. Like it or not, those heavy old tanks have a seriously strong following and likely the best brand recognition out there.
A quick search shows these just on eBay alone:
www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ORIGINAL-1970-CHICAGO-SCHWINN
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shwinn-Varsity-Bicycle/254623040795
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Schwinn-Varsity-10-speed
The last one here sold for $650, plus what ever they paid in shipping. its a bit older, but still a Varsity.
So $400 isn't any surprise. $250 to $300 for a common 70's model that's usually in need of a ton of work seems to be the norm lately.
Notice that most of the bikes selling online are not super clean or even ridable too. That bike the OP bought looks almost new.
It obviously led an easy life for the chrome bits to shine like that.
Would I have bought it myself for $400, probably not, but I'm also patient enough to wait for deal to come along.
When it does, I'm ready. If not, not big deal.
Those old Schwinn PUFF gum wall tires were around till the early 90's, they kept selling them unchanged till the end. There's likely a good chance that the tires on that bike was far younger than the bike, but still pretty much identical to the originals.
I've seen some vintage tires from the 30's that have survived, I've got my father's bike from when he was a teen in the 30's, its still got the tires on it that it had on it when I pulled it out of the loft in my grandfather's old barn in 1972, a set of Carlisle Lightning 26x2.125 black sidewall tires. They pumped up and held air. The rear tire is 'well worn' but still ridable. Ever so often I take it down off the rack and take it around the block, its even still got the original orange rubber tubes it likely came new with in the 1930's. And those tires have had no special care. They likely just didn't spend a ton of time out in the sun, and being a bike he rode on a farm, a healthy regular coating of mud may well have protect them over the years.
Like it or not, the Varsity and some of the older Schwinn models have sort of become the '57 Chevy of the bike world.
Everyone recognizes the name and model, everyone knows someone or were someone who grew up riding one, if not, they wanted one.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, its driven every collector fad there's been over the years.
That Varsity the OP found looks to be pretty clean to me, any bike that's survived 45+ years in that shape is a rarity no matter what model or brand it is. I don't know how anyone can not see the value in a bike that's made it through the years that unscathed.
The OP certainly didn't come here to be berated, accused or mocked, it lookes to me like he just came here for some opinions on whether or not to buy a bike that may or may not be the right size.
What it is or what he's willing to pay is his business, but if he was the only one, these old bikes wouldn't be selling for the prices they are these days.
A quick search shows these just on eBay alone:
www.ebay.com/itm/VINTAGE-ORIGINAL-1970-CHICAGO-SCHWINN
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Shwinn-Varsity-Bicycle/254623040795
https://www.ebay.com/itm/1961-Schwinn-Varsity-10-speed
The last one here sold for $650, plus what ever they paid in shipping. its a bit older, but still a Varsity.
So $400 isn't any surprise. $250 to $300 for a common 70's model that's usually in need of a ton of work seems to be the norm lately.
Notice that most of the bikes selling online are not super clean or even ridable too. That bike the OP bought looks almost new.
It obviously led an easy life for the chrome bits to shine like that.
Would I have bought it myself for $400, probably not, but I'm also patient enough to wait for deal to come along.
When it does, I'm ready. If not, not big deal.
Those old Schwinn PUFF gum wall tires were around till the early 90's, they kept selling them unchanged till the end. There's likely a good chance that the tires on that bike was far younger than the bike, but still pretty much identical to the originals.
I've seen some vintage tires from the 30's that have survived, I've got my father's bike from when he was a teen in the 30's, its still got the tires on it that it had on it when I pulled it out of the loft in my grandfather's old barn in 1972, a set of Carlisle Lightning 26x2.125 black sidewall tires. They pumped up and held air. The rear tire is 'well worn' but still ridable. Ever so often I take it down off the rack and take it around the block, its even still got the original orange rubber tubes it likely came new with in the 1930's. And those tires have had no special care. They likely just didn't spend a ton of time out in the sun, and being a bike he rode on a farm, a healthy regular coating of mud may well have protect them over the years.
Like it or not, the Varsity and some of the older Schwinn models have sort of become the '57 Chevy of the bike world.
Everyone recognizes the name and model, everyone knows someone or were someone who grew up riding one, if not, they wanted one.
Nostalgia is a powerful thing, its driven every collector fad there's been over the years.
That Varsity the OP found looks to be pretty clean to me, any bike that's survived 45+ years in that shape is a rarity no matter what model or brand it is. I don't know how anyone can not see the value in a bike that's made it through the years that unscathed.
The OP certainly didn't come here to be berated, accused or mocked, it lookes to me like he just came here for some opinions on whether or not to buy a bike that may or may not be the right size.
What it is or what he's willing to pay is his business, but if he was the only one, these old bikes wouldn't be selling for the prices they are these days.
08-01-20, 09:12 AM
#34
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Showing anything currently listed on eBay as an indication of "value" is really useless. Take a look at completed auctions to figure out what something did and didn't sell for:
--This one owner '72 Varsity sold for $147.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-197...e/154015532994
--This one got zero bids and didn't sell at $225: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Var...r/203055118419
--This one got zero bids and didn't sell at $87.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/schwinn-var...s/373120312757
--This '74 Varsity sold for $132.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Var...4/324230643843
I'll stop there. You paid $400 for a Varsity?! Okay, then.
--This one owner '72 Varsity sold for $147.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-197...e/154015532994
--This one got zero bids and didn't sell at $225: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Var...r/203055118419
--This one got zero bids and didn't sell at $87.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/schwinn-var...s/373120312757
--This '74 Varsity sold for $132.50: https://www.ebay.com/itm/Schwinn-Var...4/324230643843
I'll stop there. You paid $400 for a Varsity?! Okay, then.
08-01-20, 03:32 PM
#35
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In my area all road bikes have seen a good COVID bump, but for the typical 70s Schwinn in decent shape that meant a jump from $75 to $150 or so. I'm sure the Schwinn collectors value certain models and years at a premium and survivor bikes in fantastic condition are worth whatever folks will pay.
08-03-20, 08:10 AM
#36
vintage rider
The box stores are sold out around here and don't seem to be restocking, several bike shops have closed up do to no inventory. I just red an article about one shop that was told they weren't going to see any new bikes till November or later and not to count on that. They chose to close up and call it quits.
Used bikes are going through he roof, especially if its a clean ready to ride or 'survivor' bike.
It doesn't matter what level the bike was, any name brand 'shop grade' bike is better than most would have gotten at Walmart or Target.
The few local shops that remain are sold out of everything, tires are gone, repair parts as scarce all of a sudden. I'm seeing low end models listed for $500 plus all over. I have no clue if anyone is getting them or not but I listed and sold a 1979 Schwinn Traveler II ladies model that looked like brand new two months ago for $400. I got a dozen nasty emails from those who replied after it sold, I got everything from people complaining I sold it too cheap, that's why it went so fast, to being cursed out for not letting them 'bid' on it instead.
I'm not sure what people are panic buying more, toilet paper or bicycles.
If I had found a Varsity as clean as the one the OP found, I'm not sure if I wouldn't have bought it myself. $400 may be a stretch but after 45 or more years, how many clean examples of those could have made it through the years that clean? Certainly not enough to go around to everyone who wants one. If you look back at the Stingray and Krate model craze a few years ago, some clean or restored examples were selling in the thousands. Before that it was balloon tire bikes.
The problem I saw with the 20" bike craze is that those bikes were basically un-ridable for an adult who owned them, at least a guy who buys a vintage Varsity can ride the thing, even if its only on occasion.
Used bikes are going through he roof, especially if its a clean ready to ride or 'survivor' bike.
It doesn't matter what level the bike was, any name brand 'shop grade' bike is better than most would have gotten at Walmart or Target.
The few local shops that remain are sold out of everything, tires are gone, repair parts as scarce all of a sudden. I'm seeing low end models listed for $500 plus all over. I have no clue if anyone is getting them or not but I listed and sold a 1979 Schwinn Traveler II ladies model that looked like brand new two months ago for $400. I got a dozen nasty emails from those who replied after it sold, I got everything from people complaining I sold it too cheap, that's why it went so fast, to being cursed out for not letting them 'bid' on it instead.
I'm not sure what people are panic buying more, toilet paper or bicycles.
If I had found a Varsity as clean as the one the OP found, I'm not sure if I wouldn't have bought it myself. $400 may be a stretch but after 45 or more years, how many clean examples of those could have made it through the years that clean? Certainly not enough to go around to everyone who wants one. If you look back at the Stingray and Krate model craze a few years ago, some clean or restored examples were selling in the thousands. Before that it was balloon tire bikes.
The problem I saw with the 20" bike craze is that those bikes were basically un-ridable for an adult who owned them, at least a guy who buys a vintage Varsity can ride the thing, even if its only on occasion.
08-03-20, 01:27 PM
#38
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I've got tires from the 50's on a few balloon tire bikes that are still good. I don't see why a set of Schwinn tires couldn't survive from '74.
If they were kept out of the sun and stored where they at least somewhat protected they could still be fine.
I've bought more than a dozen new old stock bikes over the past 20 years, only one came out of the box with tires that were degraded, and those were only showing very minor cracks in the gumwalls. I've got several pair of vintage IRC and CST tires that I wrapped up and bagged in the mid to late 80's for future use that are still like brand new as well. I had gotten a deal on them and packed them away by wrapping each tire with plastic and bagging them in pairs. I vacuumed out the air, and boxed them up. I used a pair a few months ago they're like brand new. I think UV light and avoiding exposing them to ozone from running motors and such is a big key to getting rubber to last.
If they were kept out of the sun and stored where they at least somewhat protected they could still be fine.
I've bought more than a dozen new old stock bikes over the past 20 years, only one came out of the box with tires that were degraded, and those were only showing very minor cracks in the gumwalls. I've got several pair of vintage IRC and CST tires that I wrapped up and bagged in the mid to late 80's for future use that are still like brand new as well. I had gotten a deal on them and packed them away by wrapping each tire with plastic and bagging them in pairs. I vacuumed out the air, and boxed them up. I used a pair a few months ago they're like brand new. I think UV light and avoiding exposing them to ozone from running motors and such is a big key to getting rubber to last.
