dwscrimshaw@bti

Started new thread on this subject in the hope or identifying more numbers. With a lot of help from Doug (CBguy) on frame identification I have updated the numbering charts seen on the original thread.

A summary of the various numbering systems used by Holdsworth is shown below with more details on Goggle Cloud. This is based on a growing number of frames found on line and information from other websites on the subject. The following are the systems that these numbers seem to fall into.

Pre-War.
Post war 5 Digit numbers and the continuation of this from 1965.
Early 60's 4 Digit numbers (1962-1964).
Shop numbers from 1965 with 1st 2 digits for the year.
Early 70's 4 Digit series (with leading zeros) including branded frames.
6 Digit System from 1976.

The predictions shown are based on the usage of Factory issued numbers and steady production of 1500 frames per year up to 1961 and 1200 frames per year from 1965 when the shop had its own system. 6 Digit numbers have an increasing yearly production up to 1985. The Framework graphs show how this fits around known fixed points in production and frames with good dates or documents to back up their dates.

There are issues with this mainly around shop frames and others that seem to have taken longer to progress through the factory. There are also a few that show up too early, for which I have no real explanation. I have show these on the graphs to indicate the level of accuracy that can be expected with this approach.

All other frames with less clear dating have then been added in where they would occur along with the original description in the Excel sheet. I would be interested in any frame numbers, particularly those with good dates. Hope this is of interest.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...UZYSTNKZkN4TmM

Wileyone 

I had been under the impression the Shop only made 100-150 Frames per Year. Was that just in the 60's?

Wileyone 

Excellent work BTW.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes, I have this number in the excel file. It looks to be part of the post 65 shop numbering system where the first two digits are the year, 1967 in your case, then the last 3 digits would be the sequential frame number 117. I have heard of 125 frames per year so yours should be towards the end of 1967. However the numbers found would suggest that they went up to over 800 frames in 1969 and 1974. It could be that production rampped up in this period as I have not seen numbers this high in mid 60's. This is a well documented number series, but numbers identified so far are rather limited. Have you looked at the info on the link? bit too much to put in post.

allend

Great work Dave!
Impressive documentation and a great resource for all for narrowing the year and identifying model with help of catalogs on Kilgariff site. When I last counted a few days ago there were approx. 200 serial numbers listed on your excel spread sheet. Things are certainly becoming clearer as numbers are added. THE MORE NUMBERS THE BETTER!

I wasn't aware of early 70's 4 digit special numbers until recently after discussing a frame with Hilary Stone that he has for sale. (Often these frames appear to be factory models customized for smaller shop re-branding as example Harding)

Wileyone,
The Putney shop numbering system beginning with 2 digit year began on or shortly after '65 and continued until 1975 when Roy Thame was told by Holdsworthy headquarters to stop branding shop models as Holdsworths. Following '75 shop frames were branded Roy Thame.

Doug
(aka CBguy on Retrobike)

GordoTrek

I just acquired a holdsworth frame and it looks like the SN is 11153 unless this isn't the SN. Is it located on the bottom of the BB shell?

allend

Hi GordoTrek

Yes the numbers 11153 is in the same position, orientation and size of usual Holdsworth serial numbers. As you can see from Dave Scrimshaw's graphs number would date to c.1949, leaning towards 1950. FYI I have a Holdsworth sirocco # 13006 that is dated to 1951.

Do you know what model yours is? Pics of frame are always interesting and helpful with dating.

Doug

GordoTrek

Here is a gallery of pictures for the holdsworth. I'm still unsure of the model. I pulled the frame out of strip/scrap pile at my local coop. All of the identifying decals have been removed. Only the Headbadge remains. I haven't found one with the same color as this one. Hopefully you can shed some light on it. I have another thread already dedicated to this frame. "Holdsworth Score"

allend

Hi GordoTrek,
I sent a reply to your "Holdsworth Score" thread just to try to keep all in one place.
Doug

dwscrimshaw@bti

Looked at other thread and noted the number, I'll wait for clarification on Model.

Wileyone 

Here's one that has always puzzled me. This is supposed to be Bob Addy's 1967 Professional made by Reg Collard at the Putney Shop. But lists the serial # as 674706 misprint maybe?

Holdsworth Pawsey

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes, this has been giving us some thought too. I have kept it separate from the other shop frames for the time being until more info comes to light. Can't see why this would have 4 digits after the date unless there is some other system for team bikes, but I have not seen this suggested anywhere. All other shop frames of the period only have up to 3 Digits after the date although a number of these have been found with numbers far higher than the expected yearly volume of ~150. That said this figure was suggested for up to the 60's it could have increased after that, but again I have not found anything to support that other than these numbers.

Wileyone 

Well it doesn't look to be a misprint as there is a closed listing on ebay for what appears to be the same Frame.

1967 Holdsworth Italia Team Frame/Fork. ex Bob Addy. Tour de France. Campagnolo. | eBay

dwscrimshaw@bti

Yes I would agree with you. I am keeping this separate for the time being until we come across any more numbers that might shed some light on it.

Wileyone 

Cheers

allend

It is my understanding the number of 125 to 150 shop builds per year talked about by Kigariff is used by him in reference to only Reg Collard's Shop builds in early 60's. I think I have only seen this number in a letter from Kilgariff in assessment of a c.1963 Italia built by Collard. Kilgariff quotes correspondence from Collard. Does someone else have other sources? True Adventures of the Retro Grupetto: Holdsworth Italia

In history section of website, Kilgariff states Collard joined Roy Thame in 1958 to build specials as requested by factory, which was trying to stick to set models and getting away from custom builds. When looking at shop numbers with 2D date prefix collected from 1965 onward there does appear to be a gradual ramping up of numbers from 1966 on. In the above letter Kilgariff also talks of other builders in mid to later 60's such as Charlie Roberts, Alec Bird and Tommy Quick and no doubt others who were mainly building stock frames. Around 1970 Quick took over as the main shop builder when Collard retired. Kilgariff says these builders were also building frames for WF Holdsworth at other sites, so not all frames were built at the smallish Putney shop.

So, perhaps there was indeed a gradual ramping up of the WF Holdsworth Shop numbers over the years of the bike boom with the addition of various builders. Dave Scrimshaw lists an Italia 74826 which, even with a "ramping up", makes 826 seem a very high total builds for 1974. Unfortunately we are getting to a time where people as Kilgariff and those with first hand experience re numbers are disappearing although we can hope that someone will chime in. Otherwise, hopefully more numbers will clarify.

I agree Bob Addy's team pro #674706 must have an as yet, unclear separate explanation.

I am personally very glad there are others online that have enthusiasm for chasing the Holdsworth numbers, although I can picture other Holdsworth fans' eyes glazing over when talking about these nitty gritty perhaps boring details!

dwscrimshaw@bti

Thanks Doug, Yes my eyes glassed over end of last week, took a break from it. Got a couple of rides in and did some work on the Monsoon over the w/e.

Yes, the frame numbers found for the shop builds does seem to support an increase in production and the names you mention are well documented. I missed the relevance to the specific nature of the ~150 frames per week. thanks for the clarification.

MiloFrance

August 2015 I won a Holdsworth on the bay for £22 including postage. My sister stored it until I could get there, which I still havn't. She did get it out today (finally!) and send me some pics. Also checked the serials, and the fork is a match. Frame number is 005933. Stamped dropouts so not the highest of models, but anyone have an idea what it is? Cheers!

1989Pre 

I would say it is an early 60's Hurricane, but it does not appear to have parallel geometry. Is there any way you can supply a photo of the entire frame, broad-side? Also, a photo of the marquis would be helpful.

Wileyone 

Non wrap around seat stay is interesting.

allend

MiloFrance,

Your Holdsworth frame with a six digit serial (#005933), according to Dave's prediction graph, would be placed at 1977. This is a helpful number as there had been a gap in frame numbers in that range.

Armed with the info of a frame predicted to be 1977'ish one can go to online resources to confirm and source the model.

Looking at catalogues from Kilgariff's site this frame would fit as the starter Holdsworth model - 1977 Equipe. He has a 76 catalog and a 78 which appears to be the last year of production.

Frame would have to be plain gauge and that vintage would have a straight rear brake bridge. Pic? A BB cable guide for RD and a cable stop for FD is typical. Apparent non parallel geometry I suspect is camera generated. need a side on view.

Randy(?) who posts to this forum has a very useful website and one of his "England" bikes is a "70's" Equipe. A great example. FINDING THE HOLDSWORTH EQUIPE

Doug

MiloFrance

Thank you gentlemen, I think that is most definitely £22 worth.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Thanks for the number, you seem to have picked up some good bargains. I thought I did well paying £40 for a frame with no forks.

I have added the number and as Doug says it is useful. Assuming we are agreed on Equipe then this is post 76 & 78 latest. With this in mid I would put this down as an amber date due to limited range of possibilities.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Done a further update to show the difference between prediction and reality.

https://drive.google.com/drive/folde...UZYSTNKZkN4TmM

Mr. Spadoni 

So to throw a spanner in the works, how do the roy thame serial numbers fit into this scheme? They were made by holdsworth, no?