dwgwater

going deeper into the archives, I found a letter from John West dated Sept 23rd '74 reporting that he had "only one" 23" Strada with fender clearances (74739) in stock. Dad sent a deposit and picked it up in March 75. So consistent with the 74 frame date.....

dwgwater

I found the last invoice/data point from the archives: 23" Mistral ordered May 13, '74, picked up June 6, '74 at Putney: 39270 My brother has that one.

I have a catalog and price lists from that mid '70s era too
Dave

allend

Dave,

These 3 frames all very helpful and important information.

Looks to me like your father's "Strada" (74739) is a frame built for shop stock. Because font and position of serial is different than other Shop frames and with excellent documentation you have, I'd have to think likely this is a frame built by an outside builder (as Kilgariff describes was often the case for stock frames). Also similarity of serial positioning to two other frame from '72 and '73 in Dave Scrimshaw's list is further suggestive evidence that these frame were also built by outside builders.

Obviously with correspondence from John West himself, describing this frame as a Strada is pretty definitive. I will say, as described in Kilgariff's 74 catalogue from WFHoldsworth, technically the Italia was a "Strada" with increased clearances, fender eyelets, added braze-ons and more relaxed geometry for more all round use as compared to racing Strada. Perhaps semantics. No doubt you have seen pics below.

Doug

dwgwater

Thanks for the info Doug. I do have that catalog. Someone had a scan of my copy on his website at one time. Kilgariff? I saw it and recognized my handwriting. Whoever it was must have found a clean copy as I can't find it anymore.

https://www.nkilgariff.com/holdsStrada.jpg

It does have the Campag headset, like the Strada, but the fender clearances suggest Italia. My speculation has always been that someone ordered it as a second, training bike (hence the space for fenders for bad weather) then changed his mind and it ended up in stock. Maybe John thought they could more easily sell a Strada/Italia mash up at the shop. Who knows? I've never seen another with that block HOLDSWORTH font on the frame either. The braze-ons are odd too, as it needs the crossover adapter for the Campag NR front derailleur, but has a spot for a front derailleur cable housing that would have worked for the Valentino derailleur on my old Mistral. Any guess as to the builder?

allend

Hi Dave,

I really have no reliable knowledge re outside builders in WF Holdsworth shop beyond the writings of N Kilgariff. Certainly main "shop" builder at time of your frame build would have been TJ Quick, having taken over from Reg Collard in 1970. Outside builders that Kilgariff mentions are Alec Bird and Charlie Roberts and who he says more likely built Italias for stock. Times are unclear. Have you seen this Kilgariff letter with relevant info?: True Adventures of the Retro Grupetto: Holdsworth Italia

I have seen an ~ 1972 shop frame now for sale on ebay whose number begins with a K and ends with R suggesting anecdotal possibility of being built by Roberts. This frame is discussed recently on Retrobike under "Holdsworth Professional Track Frame?" with some other confusing evidence from another poster.

Doug

dwscrimshaw@bti

Thanks for the documentary evidence, very helpful. Good to see the Mistral fits the prediction. I'll add this latter. More Green dots!

hobbs1951

posted in error.

tricky 

Crossposted from the Nov Grey Bike thread. I never got around to taking updated pictures but I just found these old pics on Flickr. I need to take some better quality pics, but this'll do for a "better late then never" post to this thread. It's stripped to the frame right now and in winter hibernation, but I am thinking a three speed English influenced build will be up next for this frame. I have always wanted to play with a Sturmey Archer and I think this frame would look great with a build like that.

tricky 

She's been my main rider for about 12 years (when the pics from the last post were taken) and needs some love on the finish. It might be to the point where it needs a refinish. Without further delay, gratuitous pics:













2017-12-02_009 by Michael Popovici, on Flickr

Wileyone 

That "Italia" Decal looks a Little suspicious...

Non the less nice Frameset.

tricky 

Do you mean that it doesn't seem to match the rest of the frame? I have always thought so too, but can't find any pics of another one of these to find out if it is original.The catalogue scans I have found aren't much help either. https://www.nkilgariff.com/Aids/Aids81/p42_43.jpg

tricky 

Found this. The description is "1983 Claud Butler Sierra." It's similar placement and font but with a little more interesting design.

Wildwood 

I think my bike is in the chart on post #1.
Not an early model but 80s Holdsworth Special; but sold to George Harding and branded as an Irish 'Harding'.
I have no idea how many Holdsworths were branded as Harding and sold in Cork & Dublin and also in Charlie's LA shop.

edit: quality paint as it polished-up very nicely.

amulinder

Excellent post. I have been making a log of Holdsworth frame numbers (mainly as they come up on eBay over the last 3 years, so make no claim for reliability just want the owners claim is the year). Will have a look and see what I can add to this.

amulinder

The only other frame number I have in this style, is one I think that came off the internet, so you probably have it too. Its 674108 and is called an Italia team professional built by Reg Collard.

dwscrimshaw@bti

Thanks that's interesting. No I do not have this one, i'll add it to the list, odd that they are both from 67, do you have any more details or Photos?

amulinder

Can't find it at the moment, hoped I would have it saved in one of my Holdsworth links. Will carry on looking though. Interesting that it fits in to your theory about the extra digit indicating a team bike. 67 is a coincidence? The first pro team wasn't until 1969. When were the BB shells stamped? Do you have a photo of 'your' frame number? Could the last digit have been stamped on later, and they are re-using old stock?

Wileyone 

Holdsworth/Campagnolo Team was formed in 1968.

amulinder

Ok, so formed in 1968 to start racing in 1969; so easier to see started using 1967 numbered parts. Still doesn't explain the extra digit - could it have been stamped on later?

Wileyone 

Not sure of the reasoning for stamping an extra diget on later would be.

I think regarding serial # 674108 is not just the 8 tacked on the end but the 410 seems kind of high for a shop frame of that period.

amulinder

I own two Holdsworths...
#31236 Super Mistral - owned by dad who bought it from the Putney shop. Was never sure the exact year but erred on 1968 and am sure he bought it then. But I can see how it was made in 1967 (factory built after all) and purchased in 1968.
#28535 Cyclone bought from Hilary Stone who said it was 1962. But I think (correctly!) it must be 1961 as otherwise it would be truly unique. Again factory built in 1961 but purchased in 1962 I assume.

allend

Pro bikes 674706(Classic Lightweights) and 674108 (Velobase) are one and the same. Reportedly built by Collard for Bob Addy. Thought to be the first Pro in iconic orange. I talked via email with recent owner that sold frame, I have seen a pic and serial is very difficult to read. Often we have found 1's and 7's are misinterpreted for each other. My thought is that perhaps the 4 means April and the 108th or 106th frame. Numbers are written transversely across BB, different than stacked numbers associated with Collard from 68 until retirement.

amulinder

Fantastic sleuthing!

browngw 

Great thread! I just acquired a Holdsworth Equipe Serial #36309 (bottom Bracket) From online descriptions and a 73 Catalog, I thought it might be a 1973. From the research done here it appears to be a 1972. It still has all its entry level Campaqnolo components and Campaqnolo hubs as well. Could not yet find markings on the alloy rims. but they have the ridge like Weimann. Brakes and the shorty mudguards are Weinmann as well. Brooks B5N. Seat post and stem are now free. I thought the stem was going to get the better of me!

allend

Hi browngw,

Well, actually Dave has started a new up to date numbers thread and table actually place this frame as c.1971.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...er-update.html

Also Kilgariff states, that contrary to what catalogues say often colour scheme of Equipes varied. Quote: "It was available in orange with blue panels, blue with orange panels or silver with white panels in 1972, although the brochures imply team colours only."

Colour scheme panels on your seat tube actually looks the style of what was used on the Record. Perhaps buyers choice? Your frame certainly appears to have shorter pointed Prugnat lugs and Valentino Campagnolo gears as on Equipe.

Doug