Problem with the 2006 Litespeed Ultimate?
01-26-06, 07:54 PM
#26
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I know our frames are different but I just looked at my Tuscany rear and clearance is 9-10mm total between left and right. That is with a crappy Serfa winter 23c tire which my lbs said looks like a wide 23 which I agree. Hope everything works out.
01-26-06, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by daytonian
I know our frames are different but I just looked at my Tuscany rear and clearance is 9-10mm total between left and right.
01-26-06, 08:06 PM
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I'm curious as to whether there is a noticable difference in the tire profiles that you are using. But I can't really see how your tires could have a 3 or 4mm difference between what Litespeed tested. It could be that tire pressure. The highest I ride at is about 130psi at the rear.
Also, at 210, I can't see you knocking wheels (unless they're very cheap) out of true unless you hitting things you should be going around. I'm 225 and haven't had any problems knocking a wheel out of true.
Also, at 210, I can't see you knocking wheels (unless they're very cheap) out of true unless you hitting things you should be going around. I'm 225 and haven't had any problems knocking a wheel out of true.
01-26-06, 08:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
Oh, and can tires really vary that much in diameter?
- but from my limited and naive viewpoint, the tire clearance issue you describe indicates a design problem with the frame... i would never buy a frame with that kind of close tolerance - what if i were out on the road, needed a new tire, and the LBS didn't have one that could clear the tube at proper pressure?
- just MHO, mind you...
01-27-06, 12:38 AM
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That news updates isn't good... Sure having shorter chainstays would provide a more direct feel and have the rear wheel draft the seat tube...but 2mm is a tad close for comfort. I sometimes like to put on tires bigger than the 700x23 variety for those rougher roads. With 2mm clearance, a 700x25 is likely to rub the seat tube and a 700x28 is probably totally out of the question... I guess I won't buy a Litespeed Ultimate toward the end of 2006 after all... Maybe the Tuscany or the Vortex? I guess I'll decide on something after summer '06.
01-27-06, 01:28 AM
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On my 2005 Tuscany, with Muchelin Pro Race at 120 psi, the clearance between te tire and te derailleur collar is 5 mm. You can't fit a little finger between them.
01-27-06, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
So here's the update as of 1/26/06
Let me start out by saying University Bicycle Center (UBC) in Tampa has been GREAT considering I bought the Litespeed bike through Competitive Cyclist. Don't flame me about LBS stuff becuase I bought a bike from these guys too in the past few months! They are a Litespeed dealer, so that's who Litespeed asked me to send the frame too. Back to the main story:
UBC called me this week and said Litespeed checked the frame and there was nothing wrong. They put wheels on it, and said the tollerence was just fine. I found out from UBC that Litespeed only had some Rubio (sp?) tires so they neglected to test with my current tire which is a Vredestein (sp?). Litespeed said with their tire it was OK. UBC made clear that was not the tire I had. That did not apparently matter to Litespeed. This is all per UBC.
Now is where the plot thickens. I paid my wrench friend to do the build up that we aborted. I am out $100 for his labor. UBC built my Caad8 back up. They now have to break down the Caad8 and build up the Ultimate. He said it looks like he needs to charge me for the build on the Ultimate. I understand, although I am not happy with the math. Furthermore, it sounds like he is concerend about what Litespeed is going to do on his end, since he was a big help (and he was) for a bike he did not sell. Sounds like Litespeed is going to give him a credit.
So now I need to take my Caad8 back to UBC, break it down, and have them build up the Ultimate, and I probabaly need to buy new tires so that they fit. Oh BTW the clearance is only 2mm unlike the 10mm (1 centimeter) the above guy mentioned according to UBC and Litespeed. Litespeed, according to my wrench friend, told him the spec was 4mm. Sounds like 2 is the new 4.
My gut says this is not looking good. So now I need to go after Litespeed about the $100 I paid my wrench, after they said the bike was wrong. Otherwise none of this would have started. And yes, it just doesn't look right.
Your thoughts, fellow BF members?
Let me start out by saying University Bicycle Center (UBC) in Tampa has been GREAT considering I bought the Litespeed bike through Competitive Cyclist. Don't flame me about LBS stuff becuase I bought a bike from these guys too in the past few months! They are a Litespeed dealer, so that's who Litespeed asked me to send the frame too. Back to the main story:
UBC called me this week and said Litespeed checked the frame and there was nothing wrong. They put wheels on it, and said the tollerence was just fine. I found out from UBC that Litespeed only had some Rubio (sp?) tires so they neglected to test with my current tire which is a Vredestein (sp?). Litespeed said with their tire it was OK. UBC made clear that was not the tire I had. That did not apparently matter to Litespeed. This is all per UBC.
Now is where the plot thickens. I paid my wrench friend to do the build up that we aborted. I am out $100 for his labor. UBC built my Caad8 back up. They now have to break down the Caad8 and build up the Ultimate. He said it looks like he needs to charge me for the build on the Ultimate. I understand, although I am not happy with the math. Furthermore, it sounds like he is concerend about what Litespeed is going to do on his end, since he was a big help (and he was) for a bike he did not sell. Sounds like Litespeed is going to give him a credit.
So now I need to take my Caad8 back to UBC, break it down, and have them build up the Ultimate, and I probabaly need to buy new tires so that they fit. Oh BTW the clearance is only 2mm unlike the 10mm (1 centimeter) the above guy mentioned according to UBC and Litespeed. Litespeed, according to my wrench friend, told him the spec was 4mm. Sounds like 2 is the new 4.
My gut says this is not looking good. So now I need to go after Litespeed about the $100 I paid my wrench, after they said the bike was wrong. Otherwise none of this would have started. And yes, it just doesn't look right.
Your thoughts, fellow BF members?
Let me understand this (and I am not defending Litespeed a I personally would not want that close of clearance for the type of riding I do. I am just trying to be realistic):
1. You purchased the frame from an out of state Litespeed dealer. You selected the components. Had a non-Litespeed dealer wrench assemble the bike. You ran into problems.
2. Litespeed looked @ the frame @ their expense, stated that the frame meets the 06 model specs & is proper when assembled with their factory standard components. Litespeed did not charge you.
3. The LBS Litespeed dealer didn't profit from the sale of the frame. They swapped components from frame to frame so you could ride while this was/is being sorted out. Presumably, they make some profit from the swap out? Did they?
4. Currently, you do not like the frames specs and are returning it to Litespeed through the LBS (who didn't sell it) and are getting a full credit?
5. Through all of this, you are losing approx. $100, the amount you paid for a non-involved, non-LBS, non-Litespeed dealer to assemble the bike?
6. And you are upset???
If I understand this correctly, you are coming out of this entire ordeal very clean. Most shops who didn't sell the frame, and some manufactures, I know would have told you to pound sand.
My suggestion is to suck it up & write the $100 off. When one is dealing with upper end bikes such as the Litespeed Ultimate, there is darn little one can do for $100.
Perhaps, Litespeed may throw you a bone, ie. a $100 discount towards a new Litespeed frame (assembled I would hope) as goodwill/PR gesture. Hopefully, the LBS will not charge you additionally for their time.
I respectfully suggest to you that you:
1. Be polite and respectfull when you make your request to Litespeed &/or the selling vendor and
2. Give and send that LBS as much business as possible as I suspect that you are darn close to the end of everyone's good will.
On Edit: Perhaps you maybe able to swap the 06 frame for an 05. Certainly, there must be one somewhere in the Litespeed inentory.
Just my $02. & Good luck with it. Bob
Last edited by Bob S.; 01-27-06 at 09:18 AM.
01-27-06, 09:29 AM
#33
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Tires are definitely larger in diameter when you pump them as high as you do. Personally, I don't think even a 300 pounder needs tires at 140psi. Sounds to me like that is the problem and one you can easily correct yourself.
01-27-06, 09:57 AM
#34
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Originally Posted by Bob S.
Let me understand this (and I am not defending Litespeed a I personally would not want that close of clearance for the type of riding I do. I am just trying to be realistic):
1. You purchased the frame from an out of state Litespeed dealer. You selected the components. Had a non-Litespeed dealer wrench assemble the bike. You ran into problems.
2. Litespeed looked @ the frame @ their expense, stated that the frame meets the 06 model specs & is proper when assembled with their factory standard components. Litespeed did not charge you.
3. The LBS Litespeed dealer didn't profit from the sale of the frame. They swapped components from frame to frame so you could ride while this was/is being sorted out. Presumably, they make some profit from the swap out? Did they?
4. Currently, you do not like the frames specs and are returning it to Litespeed through the LBS (who didn't sell it) and are getting a full credit?
5. Through all of this, you are losing approx. $100, the amount you paid for a non-involved, non-LBS, non-Litespeed dealer to assemble the bike?
6. And you are upset???
If I understand this correctly, you are coming out of this entire ordeal very clean. Most shops who didn't sell the frame, and some manufactures, I know would have told you to pound sand.
My suggestion is to suck it up & write the $100 off. When one is dealing with upper end bikes such as the Litespeed Ultimate, there is darn little one can do for $100.
Perhaps, Litespeed may throw you a bone, ie. a $100 discount towards a new Litespeed frame (assembled I would hope) as goodwill/PR gesture. Hopefully, the LBS will not charge you additionally for their time.
I respectfully suggest to you that you:
1. Be polite and respectfull when you make your request to Litespeed &/or the selling vendor and
2. Give and send that LBS as much business as possible as I suspect that you are darn close to the end of everyone's good will.
On Edit: Perhaps you maybe able to swap the 06 frame for an 05. Certainly, there must be one somewhere in the Litespeed inentory.
Just my $02. & Good luck with it. Bob
1. You purchased the frame from an out of state Litespeed dealer. You selected the components. Had a non-Litespeed dealer wrench assemble the bike. You ran into problems.
2. Litespeed looked @ the frame @ their expense, stated that the frame meets the 06 model specs & is proper when assembled with their factory standard components. Litespeed did not charge you.
3. The LBS Litespeed dealer didn't profit from the sale of the frame. They swapped components from frame to frame so you could ride while this was/is being sorted out. Presumably, they make some profit from the swap out? Did they?
4. Currently, you do not like the frames specs and are returning it to Litespeed through the LBS (who didn't sell it) and are getting a full credit?
5. Through all of this, you are losing approx. $100, the amount you paid for a non-involved, non-LBS, non-Litespeed dealer to assemble the bike?
6. And you are upset???
If I understand this correctly, you are coming out of this entire ordeal very clean. Most shops who didn't sell the frame, and some manufactures, I know would have told you to pound sand.
My suggestion is to suck it up & write the $100 off. When one is dealing with upper end bikes such as the Litespeed Ultimate, there is darn little one can do for $100.
Perhaps, Litespeed may throw you a bone, ie. a $100 discount towards a new Litespeed frame (assembled I would hope) as goodwill/PR gesture. Hopefully, the LBS will not charge you additionally for their time.
I respectfully suggest to you that you:
1. Be polite and respectfull when you make your request to Litespeed &/or the selling vendor and
2. Give and send that LBS as much business as possible as I suspect that you are darn close to the end of everyone's good will.
On Edit: Perhaps you maybe able to swap the 06 frame for an 05. Certainly, there must be one somewhere in the Litespeed inentory.
Just my $02. & Good luck with it. Bob
Nowhere on Litespeeds site does it say "make sure you do not use Mavic SL's with certain tires on this frame.
I never said I was returning the bike. I said nothing but good things about the LBS. The only person here being disrespecful is you. I have said nothing but good things about the LBS. Call Carlos and ask him before you flame me! I just reffered two bikes two him, plus bought one myself since this ordeal began. Are you happy? Are you reading a different thread?
If you read the first few posts, I tried to order the ENTIRE bike from competitve cyclist. That fell apart because I was tired of waiting (now) 6 months for a new bike due to Litespeed.
I would love to see somone say (earnestly) that I am wrong for thinking 2mm is too close. That would make me feel better. You, like everyone else, have expressed concern that this tolerance is not good. If I could pay $100 and have all of this fixed today with an extra few mm's to spare, believe you me I would!
01-27-06, 12:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
I would love to see somone say (earnestly) that I am wrong for thinking 2mm is too close. That would make me feel better.
:-)
- i just took a quick persual of my rides hanging from the ceiling in the garage, and i see a wide range of clearances between all frames in all dimensions (such as inside carbon forks)... one of the bikes (a Specialized) has about 5mm clearance... but by changing out the derailleur type/band i could get more room...
- if you can't swap out a part for more room surely there are other tires that can meet your needs that will work with the bike? i'll bet it's a great ride!
01-27-06, 12:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
Your thoughts, fellow BF members?
My bad if I misunderstood about your returning the frame.
Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
In short, I wanted an all titanium frame with a short chainstay length. These specs (and a few others) resulted in picking this bike (06 not the 05). I want this bike to be OK. For $3000 I assume you would too! That is the outcome I am looking for here.
Nowhere on Litespeeds site does it say "make sure you do not use Mavic SL's with certain tires on this frame.
Nowhere on Litespeeds site does it say "make sure you do not use Mavic SL's with certain tires on this frame.
These things are trade offs. As others have stated, switch tires, pressures, or use tubulars, or chose a different frame. Your choice.
I also spent $,000+ on bikes this past year. I received what I desired, paid for and all those that I dealt with were top notch stand-up vendors. Here is to hoping your outcome is a good as mine were. Bob
01-31-06, 10:08 AM
#37
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1/31/06 So here's the latest update. Spoke with people from Litespeed, Competitive Cyclist, and UBC yesterday. Compettive Cyclist is no longer a dealer for Litespeed so they kindly offered me some names and advice and have bowed out of the loop. Now it's just Litespeed, UBC and I left in this.
UBC wants to know what the next step is. Fair question.
Oh and to Bob S. An apology. Sorry if i came off as mad, but I am getting tired of this situation. I would like it resolved and took it out on you. I ordered this bike in August of 2005. I need more patience.
Per my phone conversation with Litespeed yesterday, they said they would pay for any additional build ups and break downs depending on which option I select below. They even offered to buy me a set of tires they said would fit.
The options:
#1 build up existing frame with or without new tires and see if it works for a while
#2 swap out existing frame for another Ultimate frame that "may" have different measurments
#3 swap out Ultimate frame for a Vortex frame
I asked if I could return the frame for a refund. Litespeed said that would be "highly unlikely".
I am leaning toward #3. Understand that I knew the chainstay would be short, but we have tested the frame locally with different wheels and different tires. Depending on which tire is used, it will either rub (whereby the tire does not spin) or it is sooooo close that to the naked eye it looks unsafe. Small road debris could cause the tire to stop rotating etc...
I have asked Litespeed if they could provide me a list of compatible wheels/tires. They said they could not. I asked if troublesome bracket could be welded on, thereby giving more clearance, they said that was impossible (which it probabaly is).
Again I knew the bike would have a short chainstay. If you had less than 1mm between your rear tire and the seat tube would you ride it?
Figured out how to post the picture!
lastly, what if the SAG wagon has the "wrong" tire?
UBC wants to know what the next step is. Fair question.
Oh and to Bob S. An apology. Sorry if i came off as mad, but I am getting tired of this situation. I would like it resolved and took it out on you. I ordered this bike in August of 2005. I need more patience.
Per my phone conversation with Litespeed yesterday, they said they would pay for any additional build ups and break downs depending on which option I select below. They even offered to buy me a set of tires they said would fit.
The options:
#1 build up existing frame with or without new tires and see if it works for a while
#2 swap out existing frame for another Ultimate frame that "may" have different measurments
#3 swap out Ultimate frame for a Vortex frame
I asked if I could return the frame for a refund. Litespeed said that would be "highly unlikely".
I am leaning toward #3. Understand that I knew the chainstay would be short, but we have tested the frame locally with different wheels and different tires. Depending on which tire is used, it will either rub (whereby the tire does not spin) or it is sooooo close that to the naked eye it looks unsafe. Small road debris could cause the tire to stop rotating etc...
I have asked Litespeed if they could provide me a list of compatible wheels/tires. They said they could not. I asked if troublesome bracket could be welded on, thereby giving more clearance, they said that was impossible (which it probabaly is).
Again I knew the bike would have a short chainstay. If you had less than 1mm between your rear tire and the seat tube would you ride it?
Figured out how to post the picture!
lastly, what if the SAG wagon has the "wrong" tire?
01-31-06, 02:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
Figured out how to post the picture!
lastly, what if the SAG wagon has the "wrong" tire?
lastly, what if the SAG wagon has the "wrong" tire?
Wow! From the picture it looks as if there's zero clearance. If they're not charging extra for the Vortex, I would just go with the Vortex...that's unless you do crits.
01-31-06, 03:03 PM
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Yeah, because the Vortex frame will be the reason you'd lose a crit.
01-31-06, 07:33 PM
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Originally Posted by ImprezaDrvr
Yeah, because the Vortex frame will be the reason you'd lose a crit.
Update 5:30 PM 1/31/06
Spoke with Litespeed. We are going to swap the Ultimate Frame for a Vortex frame. Litespeed will pay for all of the breakdown/ buildup for the bikes (Caad8 to Vortex). My only out of pocket is for the orginal build by my neighbor/wrench. I am pretty happy with this arangement. UBC is getting "credits" for their time and effort into this. Sounds like they are happy too.
There could be one small problem. They haven't any 61cm Vortex's in stock. It will be a week or so until it is built. That means it might be another month until I ever get to ride "this" bike.
I will post the next update "hopefully" when the frame arrives and the bike is built. Pray that I have no reason to post sooner. Did Euro ever finish his bike? It makes me wonder if mine will be finished sooner?
Thanks for all of the advice. To those who sent me their measurments, that was a big help in dealing with the issue.
Unrelated: Went on a great recovery ride tonight with Monica. Incredibly stunning blonde. 5'8" tall with blue eyes. She has three ironmans under her belt. The southern tip of Davis Island had a gorgeous sunset. We both did an easy 25 miles and were able to enjoy the most stunning sunset I have seen this winter. If this bike frame madness is the worst thing I have to worry about right now, then I have got it pretty good.
01-31-06, 10:37 PM
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Enjoy the vortex, sir.
__________________
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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
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Two wheels good. Four wheels bad.
01-31-06, 11:00 PM
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Glad to hear you got it all worked out, enjoy the new bike! Looks like Litespeed should have gone with a braze on front derailler for the Ultimate. That pic looks kinda scary!
01-31-06, 11:31 PM
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Originally Posted by ImprezaDrvr
Yeah, because the Vortex frame will be the reason you'd lose a crit.
Just saying that if you have two guys with very similar abilities at the front, you want to be on the one with a shorter wheelbase that allows you to take the tighter turns more easily. Obviously if you're at the back of the pack, any bike (short of one with an engine) wouldn't make much difference...
02-01-06, 06:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Red is Faster!
LOL! Unrelated: Went on a great recovery ride tonight with Monica. Incredibly stunning blonde. 5'8" tall with blue eyes. She has three ironmans under her belt. The southern tip of Davis Island had a gorgeous sunset. We both did an easy 25 miles and were able to enjoy the most stunning sunset I have seen this winter. If this bike frame madness is the worst thing I have to worry about right now, then I have got it pretty good.
After looking at that picture of the clearance, I certainly understand your concern. Frankly, I am surprised that Litespeed could, or would, not provide specifications as to tire/wheel sizes for the frame. One would think those are design criteria.
You will probably be better off with the Vortex anyway, it does appear from the picture that the clearance would be a problem. If you are anything like me, the bike purchase & build up was to be a "fun" event which you were looking forward to. It is maddening when these things turn into problem. We certainly get enough of these in other "non fun" area of our lives.
Anyway, good luck with the rest build & build up process and here is to hoping that all the rides on the new bike are as pleasant as your ride above. Please keep us updated and post of picture of the finished product (perhaps with Monica holding it!). Bob
02-14-06, 09:28 PM
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Hey Red; Is the Vortex in yet? Ridable?. I must be getting real close if it is not. How about some pics & an update when it is ready. Bob
02-14-06, 10:55 PM
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Just for the heck of it I mounted a Ultra Gatorskin 700X28 on my 63 Ultimate and the tire has lots of clearance.
There is a good 1/4 inch between the derailleur and the tire.
There is a good 1/4 inch between the derailleur and the tire.
02-14-06, 11:12 PM
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Maybe I'm a Hack, but if I really wanted the bike and set-up badly, I would have milled out the back of the Derailleur clamp myself.
Anyway, glad to hear it is somewhat resolved.
Anyway, glad to hear it is somewhat resolved.
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-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
-Trek 5000* -Project Litespeed* -The Italian Job* -Rocky Wedge* -The Canadian Connection*
02-21-06, 09:29 AM
#50
...need...more...power...
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Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: A place where we ride in the winter!
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2/21/06 update (Month 7 for those keeping track)
As of today, both UBC and I are still waiting on the frame to be manufactured by Litespeed. Matt Conto of Litespeed assures me that it will be the first bike that is made in the next run. That was three weeks ago. I must admit I am starting to worry.
The Caad8 did remarkably well on a century two weeks ago. I was the third bike across the line. That qualified me for a spot on the Peleton for the Race Across Florida. Maybe the Karma is with the Caad8? I have since named it "Spanky". Last 10 miles were over a causeway into a 30 MPH headwind. Our leadgroup went from 20 to 3 pretty quickly. Funny story: I am still new to road racing (go figure). Coming in to the finish, I was in the lead by about 100 feet. Two blocks to go. I was so tired that I slowed at a stop light. Lack of attention or old habit? The two guys behind me sprinted and beat me across the line. I was within 10 feet of glory....
Live an learn.
ViperZ asked about the clamp. We all thought about milling it down, however Litespeed was against this. The clamp is not all that substantial. It might have cracked. Litespeed said there was no way to make a clamp as an intergral part of the seat tube. Shame.
Jimbalaro. I looked on the website for Litespeed frame specs a while ago. It appears the stock 63 Ulitimate has a longer chainstay than the 61. Maybe that has changed recently? Based upon my visual inspection, the 06 Vortex is the same bike as the 06 Ultimate except for the chainstay length.
For the curious, the Caad8 bottom bracket is VERY stiff. A very nice feature for a 210lbs rider.
BTW thanks to all BF members for the "emotional" support during this trying time.
As of today, both UBC and I are still waiting on the frame to be manufactured by Litespeed. Matt Conto of Litespeed assures me that it will be the first bike that is made in the next run. That was three weeks ago. I must admit I am starting to worry.
The Caad8 did remarkably well on a century two weeks ago. I was the third bike across the line. That qualified me for a spot on the Peleton for the Race Across Florida. Maybe the Karma is with the Caad8? I have since named it "Spanky". Last 10 miles were over a causeway into a 30 MPH headwind. Our leadgroup went from 20 to 3 pretty quickly. Funny story: I am still new to road racing (go figure). Coming in to the finish, I was in the lead by about 100 feet. Two blocks to go. I was so tired that I slowed at a stop light. Lack of attention or old habit? The two guys behind me sprinted and beat me across the line. I was within 10 feet of glory....
Live an learn.
ViperZ asked about the clamp. We all thought about milling it down, however Litespeed was against this. The clamp is not all that substantial. It might have cracked. Litespeed said there was no way to make a clamp as an intergral part of the seat tube. Shame.
Jimbalaro. I looked on the website for Litespeed frame specs a while ago. It appears the stock 63 Ulitimate has a longer chainstay than the 61. Maybe that has changed recently? Based upon my visual inspection, the 06 Vortex is the same bike as the 06 Ultimate except for the chainstay length.
For the curious, the Caad8 bottom bracket is VERY stiff. A very nice feature for a 210lbs rider.
BTW thanks to all BF members for the "emotional" support during this trying time.