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front derailleur kicking my ar**

Old 05-05-13, 04:18 PM
  #1  
Greenfieldja
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front derailleur kicking my ar**

Have had problems dialing in my front derailleur for as long as I have owned my mountain bike (scott spark 60). The problem is the front derailleur will not consistently shift up to the big ring. Everything is stock and set up correctly.

Setup:
Shimano Deore front derailleur
FSA triple crankset

FD is set between 1 and 2mm above the teeth of the largest chainring and is parallel to the chainrings as well. I have quadruple checked this.

Limit screws are properly set to @ 1 to 1.5mm from the chain when in the smallest cog and largest ring. If I unscrew the high-limit screw further the chain will consistently overshift the large ring and fall off to the outside.

I have removed, cleaned, lubed, reinstalled, re-set the limit screws, verified height, rotation, and cable tension. Everything is good with regards to shifting between the middle and small rings and I can shift down from the large ring just fine but shifting up to the large ring is hit or miss...sometimes it catches and shifts up just fine and other times it just grinds as it tries to catch. Holding the rapid fire shifter or not holding it does not make any difference.

Adding tension to the cable does not make it shift any more consistently.

This should be a no-brainer but this is stumping me.

I am beginning to think the 2009/2010 deore front derailleur is just crap and I should replace it.

Anyone with any advice?

-j
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Old 05-05-13, 04:37 PM
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Step one, confirm the limit setting and shift performance without using the lever. Start from the middle ring, and pedal and shift by pulling the wire away from the frame tube like a bow string. Adjust the limit so this method gives you the best shifting without over shifting.

Now adjust cable length (tension) to duplicate shift performance via the lever.

I should point out, that sometimes there is inadequate FD travel because of lever mismatches, or where the cable is attached, making getting good shift performance through the three gears impossible. Before going crazy, get the chain out of your way and confirm the travel range (spanning), by looking down from the top and observing the cage position with respect to the sprockets. You should be able to have the center of the cage centered equally on all three sprockets. Usually there's a slight bit of over-travel which is resolved via the inner limit, but under-travel is doom.

Sometimes (on certain FDs) under-travel can be resolved by clamping the wire to the inside (toward the pivot) of the pinch bolt. Another trick for when you only need a hair more travel, is to enlarge the lever's pulley drum. This can be done by sliding a short length of tubing up the wire to where it's trapped between the wire and drum (easier on some levers than others), or super-gluing a piece of stainless shim stock around the drum (this is the hard way in most cases).

Lastly, if travel span is OK, but shift response is less than OK, try rotating the FD slightly heel-in/toe-out. This makes the front edge of the inner plate give an extra kick to complete the shift. Years ago we used to bend this to the outside slightly for that kick, but modern cage plates often crack if you try to bend the,
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Old 05-05-13, 04:48 PM
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Have already done the bow string test. Limit screws are set correctly, and adding cable tension does not seem to be the problem. Cranks are installed and torqued to 30-lb/ft.

Thought about rotating the FD just as you suggested....will have to give this a shot as setting it properly is not getting me there.

Thanks for the help.

-j
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Old 05-05-13, 04:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenfieldja
Have already done the bow string test. Limit screws are set correctly, and adding cable tension does not seem to be the problem. Cranks are installed and torqued to 30-lb/ft.

Thought about rotating the FD just as you suggested....will have to give this a shot as setting it properly is not getting me there.

Thanks for the help.

-j
Check the spanning.
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Old 05-05-13, 05:39 PM
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Frankly, if I had to put money on which of the items was the problem, the fd or the crank, I'd bet on the crank. FSA cranks have had a checkered history and I've seen and read of many performance problems with them.
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Old 05-05-13, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
Frankly, if I had to put money on which of the items was the problem, the fd or the crank, I'd bet on the crank. FSA cranks have had a checkered history and I've seen and read of many performance problems with them.

Was just out in the garage playing with it and toe out helps but not greatly. As I was looking at it all I started thinking about the crank and came inside and saw your post. I am thinking you might be on to something here.

Any leads on a decent quality shimano 9sp compatible square taper triple crank?
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Old 05-05-13, 06:01 PM
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"Limit screws are properly set to @ 1 to 1.5mm from the chain when in the smallest cog and largest ring."

It is possible that you may need to set the low limit screw to have the cage closer to the chain than that. It only needs to just clear the chain; any farther and you may not have enough travel on the other end to get a clean shift to the big ring.

Is the shift wire routed correctly to the clamp screw on the derailleur?

"Any leads on a decent quality shimano 9sp compatible square taper triple crank?" How about one of the Shimano Deore triples?
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Old 05-05-13, 06:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenfieldja
Any leads on a decent quality shimano 9sp compatible square taper triple crank?
I don't know of any Shimano 9-speed triple square taper cranks but their Octalink (V2 for their MTB cranks except XTR) bottom brackets have been very durable in my experience and most of their 9-speed MTB cranks use it.

BTW, you can use a Shimano 8-speed square taper crank with an otherwise all 9-speed set up quite nicely.
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Old 05-05-13, 06:23 PM
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There's a clue here.

If the FD shifts well with direct pulling on the wire, but not via the lever, then it has to be a spanning issue. Either the FD and levers are mismatched so it's not traveling far enough, or there's something in how the wire ism attached (doubtful).

OR,

The crankset's chainring separation is greater that the FD is designed for.

This is a case or raising the bridge or lowering the water. Either increase the FD travel, or narrow the chainring separation. If everything about the FD is to spec, then make a feeler gauge, and compare the cranksets chainring separation to that of a Shimano.
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Old 05-05-13, 06:55 PM
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Originally Posted by FBinNY
There's a clue here.

If the FD shifts well with direct pulling on the wire, but not via the lever, then it has to be a spanning issue. Either the FD and levers are mismatched so it's not traveling far enough, or there's something in how the wire ism attached (doubtful).

OR,

The crankset's chainring separation is greater that the FD is designed for.

This is a case or raising the bridge or lowering the water. Either increase the FD travel, or narrow the chainring separation. If everything about the FD is to spec, then make a feeler gauge, and compare the cranksets chainring separation to that of a Shimano.
The shifters and front derailleur are both shimano deore. The crank is an FSA Dynadrive. I can probably measure the distance between chainrings with the depth guage on my vernier calipers. Do you know the measurements for shimano?

-j
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Old 05-05-13, 06:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Greenfieldja
The shifters and front derailleur are both shimano deore. The crank is an FSA Dynadrive. I can probably measure the distance between chainrings with the depth guage on my vernier calipers. Do you know the measurements for shimano?

-j
No idea, but I'm sure someone can measure theirs and post.
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Old 05-05-13, 07:38 PM
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I had an issue today with shifting back to the big ring on the downhill of the Verrazano Bridge during the 5 borough bike tour. I also have an FSA crank, mine an SL-K on a road bike. The issue was the crank bolt coming loose, allowing the crank to move outside the range of the derailleur. I tightened it up and it was then OK.

Now your issue may not be like mine as it sounds like yours is happening even when everything is set, but I'd check the crank out thoroughly. I've had this crank for 7 years now and it has always given me problems with this. FSA changed the design on the newer versions, but never had a fix other than loctite for the old ones. That bolt never stayed tight even when torqued properly.
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Old 05-05-13, 09:24 PM
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Certainly try some of the suggestions above first, but I have a few observations. I have seen instances where one can only shift with a direct pull when there is in fact a problem with setup. What is sometimes overlooked is that a direct pull can move the derailleur much faster than the lever does. The result is that the extra momentum of the chain can overcome other problems.

The fact that it has been a problem since new means that either the derailleur/shifter is defective or some other aspect of the original setup is not correct. For the defect option I would suggest substitution install a different derailleur and see if it shifts correctly. Trying a different crankset would be a bit more complicated - I'm not familiar with FSA, so won't venture an opinion regarding whether they have general problem.

As for setup, the OP has apparently eliminated outer limit (I assume if adjusted for consistent upshifting it either overshifts or causes constant rubbing on the middle chainwheel) derailleur height/rotation and cable tension. I'm not aware of anything in the shifter that would cause reduced cable pull, so I would eliminate the shifter. That leaves the cable/housing. I would suggest at least checking the housing sections where they seat into the housing stops to make sure there is not a problem causing the housing to give too much on being stressed for the shift to the big ring.
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Old 05-05-13, 10:58 PM
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Your mention of just grinding reminds me. This happens when the cable is too tight and the high limit screw is too far out. The derailleur slams the chain into the ring with so much force that it can't make the jump, so it just sits there and grinds and tries to bend the chain ring.

Try this. First, get the chain on the smallest (highest) cog in back. From the middle ring, bowstring the derailleur up to the big ring, and then use the lever to shift to the big ring.

Observe the clearances between the chain and the side plates of the derailleur. Ideally, you want the chain to barely clear the outer plate. Loosen the cable til this happens. Loosen it a bit more, for good measure, so it rubs the chain ever so lightly. Next, tighten the limit screw so when you yank on the cable the derailleur just wiggles ever so slightly.

Now we're going to see how the derailleur lifts the chain with less movement. Still on the big ring in front, shift to a middle cog in back. Now see if you can shift between the middle and outer rings in front. If it still grinds, there's something wrong with the shifter or the cable, or perhaps the lifting humps on the inner plate are worn off. If there's simply not enough movement, add a bit of tension to the cable and let out the limit screw a smidge. If it shifts, try this move from a smaller cog in back. Repeat through to the smallest rear cog, and if the chain still rubs on the outer plate, let out a bit of limit screw and take in a bit of cable, but just enough so it barely clears.

Run through all the gears and let me know if that still doesn't do it.
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Old 05-06-13, 01:41 AM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
If it still grinds, there's something wrong with the shifter or the cable, or perhaps the lifting humps on the inner plate are worn off.
Interesting...this FD seems to have a very straight inner cage plate...no bulge/humps to speak of...that is what was driving my original thought that the design of this part was crap and may just need to be replaced.

Alot of my troubleshooting was doing exactly what you recommended. I played around with rotating it and adjusting the tension late last night on the stand and it is working a bit better but not how I would expect. I will take it on the road this evening to see how it performs. If it still has problems I will apply step-by-step what you have written to see if that fleshes out the problem.

In the interim I think I am going to price shop for parts to upgrade the FD and the crank/bb.

-j
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Old 05-06-13, 03:55 PM
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You'll find that by bending the tip of the inner-cage outwards a little bit, 2-degrees or so, that it will help upshifts to the big-ring tremendously. This mimics the hump found on newer derailleur cages.
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Old 05-06-13, 04:17 PM
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Originally Posted by DannoXYZ
You'll find that by bending the tip of the inner-cage outwards a little bit, 2-degrees or so, that it will help upshifts to the big-ring tremendously. This mimics the hump found on newer derailleur cages.
I agree, and tweaking cages used to be SOP back in the day. However I stopped offering this advice, or suggested it with caution, because so many modern cages are heat treated to where they crack before they bend.

So yes, try to toe in the inner cage plate, but be conscious of whether it's willing to bend, or will crack on you.
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Old 05-06-13, 05:56 PM
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I've seen so many tweaked cages when all that was needed was positioning the derailleur correctly. But yeah, sometimes everything else fails and the last resort is the one that works.

But anyway, before tweaking or purchasing new stuff, have you tried having a shop mechanic look at it?
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Old 05-06-13, 06:22 PM
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Was this bike acquired new or used?
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Old 05-06-13, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
I've seen so many tweaked cages when all that was needed was positioning the derailleur correctly. But yeah, sometimes everything else fails and the last resort is the one that works.

But anyway, before tweaking or purchasing new stuff, have you tried having a shop mechanic look at it?

Haven't taken a bike to a shop since 1988 except for the shops that I have worked at while in college and even then I was doing my own work. I felt silly asking about this problem here given that a FD is so basic of an issue but getting it to work properly has eluded me to the point I wanted to see what others had to say about it.

While much of what has been written has already been attempted in my trouble shooting process, this thread has primarily offered me 2 things: 1) That the methods I have been using to install, adjust, troubleshoot, etc are correct as it matches much of the guidance offered, and 2) reading through the advice has given me the opportunity to look at the procedures through other peoples eyes (words) allowing me to reflect on what I am doing from a comparative perspective. I have confirmed a few things and learned a few things as well.

Have not had the chance to road test it yet as I had to work late this evening but rotating the mech has it shifting better on the stand.

For a lower end of the spectrum FD the inner cage plate seems quite stiff. Would not bend with a plier or vice grip...I suppose I would need to clamp it in a vise and apply pressure or frap it lightly with a mallet to make it yield. That is more work than its worth and with the chance of it breaking and being unserviceable I would be more inclined to just upgrade....a new FD771 derailleur can be found on-line for as low as $42-$45. Now if I can find a good deal on an XT HT2 crank/bb setup that would be great.

-j
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