HillRider

That's why I always install bottom bracket cups using two layers of plumber's teflon tape on the threads. It's not messy to use, never goes away and the cups come out years and thousands of miles later with about the same torque they were installed.

The question you asked above as to why more people aren't using it? I don't know except not everyone knows about it, knows how to apply it or has it on hand. There have been other posters on this forum over the years that have mentioned using it so I'm far from the only one.

79pmooney

But you say it seemed to go away when you took it apart 4 years later. Bet you a buck that marine grease will look the same as when you assembled it. Marine grease is formulated for a much harsher world than any bike ever sees. Think about it. The stuff has to hold up 4' deep in salt water, get pulled out wet and protect a bearing10 minutes later at highway speed. On another day, dumped still warm back into the salt water.

Quote me in 4 years and tell me I'm wrong if I am. I'll be here.

Kontact 

Titanium and antiseize is misunderstood.

On hot, high friction uses, titanium can gall from its contact with other metals - usually Ti or steel. Galling is best addressed with copper antiseize. Bikes do not suffer from galling.

Titanium (and carbon) is on the other end of the galvanic reaction scale from aluminum. Ride in the wet and a circuit is formed that causes the aluminum to form an oxide, causing it to expand as white brittle stuff. I've pulled aluminum cups out of Ti frames that crumbled on the tops of the threads. The Ti was untouched. Nothing really wrong with teflon tape, but it generally does not electrically isolate anything because the threads cut through it.

I think the very best antiseize would address the galvanic corrosion issue by offering a 'sacrificial anode' that is even more reactive than the aluminum - like magnesium or zinc. If not, the standard antiseize contains aluminum, which is at least more reactive than copper.

Wattsup

It'll have to be 8 years. 😁 The BB has already been installed with the Park High-Performance grease. Seriously though, I think I won't wait 4 years to change it again. Maybe 2 1/2.

Wattsup

How about Milk of Magnesia?
Milk of Magnesia as Anti-Sieze? - The Home Machinist!

anga

Use zinc anti-sieze or any metal below aluminum.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Galvanic_series

sweeks

Q: What's a drink comprised of vodka and milk of magnesia?
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A: A Phillips Screwdriver!

Back on topic: When I got my Airborne 20+ years ago, I added a titanium seatpost. The bike was shipped with a little tube of Finish Line Copper Assembly Lube. I've renewed the grease 3 or 4 times over the years and have had no issues with the seatpost sticking to the frame.

Lombard

Copper based antiseize is what Lynskey recommends for Ti threads.

Hondo6

Don't think I'd use it as anti-seize on a bike. From the last part of the OP in that discussion:

The "hot sections" referenced here were the hi-temp areas of jet engines; additionally, use on bolts in exhaust manifolds and turbochargers was mentioned. Bikes don't get anywhere near that hot. Plus, bikes do sometimes get wet.

awac

I was always brought up to service the brakes on my car with copper grease, but a spell living next to the North Sea on the Moray Firth, and I mean next to it, seized everything with the word brake on my car. So I used ceramic grease

I also do my hardest to use eco products, eco grease and oils are all I use. I admit I have to look deeper into the claims of ceramic grease manufacturers, I just have a little pot left over from the car and it has just been very economical, and once I have used it I will write to the manufacturers asking for their green policy. I know, I know, claiming green and have a car, get public transport integrated world government's please, and of course I use my bike as much as I can!
Sorry, quick rant on PTFE/Teflon/polytetrafluoroethylene/polymer fume fever/Teflon Toxicosis look them up, are very bad environmentally, and to your health. https://www.ewg.org/research/canaries-kitchen


Some cut and paste from on line sellers below.

”Ceramic Grease does not contain metal, it is not conductive.

Ceramic Grease is free of silicones and metal, as a result of which the product meets the environmental regulations on the use of heavy metals. Thanks to its ceramic particles the product has a superior pressure and temperature resistance range. The ceramic particles remain intact above the decomposition temperature of the grease and the mineral oils.

Ceramic Grease is also extremely well suited to greasing nuts and bolts during disassembly. It does not become brittle in high temperatures and its very good resistance to water and acids gives it rust prevention characteristics, thereby guaranteeing good protection against the effects of dirt and moisture. When Ceramic Grease is used, nuts and bolts are much easier to free afterwards.

Because the product is metal-free it also works as an insulator between different metals, thereby preventing corrosion.”

HillRider

As long as we are off on this tangent, that article is not at all germain to bicycle use. If your bottom bracket ever exceeds 450ºF you have worse problems than just Teflon fume exposure.

As to the comment that teflon tape isn't an electrical insulator since the cup threads cut through it, mechanically this may be correct. However, to have dissimilar metal corrosion, you also need an electrolyte, in this case water. The tape completely seals the threads from water incursion, which is why plumbers use it. So, no water, no corrosion.

robobike316 

Whenever we had a recurring squeaky-creaky situation the copper anti-sieze always solved it as some people have mentioned. With bb cartridges it was often standard practice to use anti sieze on the threads and on the inside of the cups rather than any type of grease. Again the copper did seem to work better.

Kontact 

Yup. They're from the aeronautics industry where that is the standard for preventing galling. They used to recommend grease.

But quoting manufactures only gets you so far when you realize that companies to this day are making bikes that galvanically eat themselves. Most of the industry doesn't understand and/or care.

Kontact 

It doesn't work that way. A coating of lube, no matter what's in it, is not going to prevent electrical contact between two pieces of metal threaded or pressed together. Antiseize works by preventing corrosion from filling all the gaps where the two pieces are not in direct contact - like the back side of the threads.

Lombard

Yikes! Well I am almost finished building this bike and only put in the BB last month. There is still time to undo it if you think I should put something else in besides copper antiseize.

sweeks

I don't understand this. None of my bikes appears to have any galvanic problems, which I assume are supposed to happen where two dissimilar metals meet. Can you explain this please?
(NB: my newest bike is 10 years old, and none of my bikes has carbon fiber parts.)

According to THIS, anti-seize contains solid particles (aluminum, nickel, copper, molybdenum disulfide, etc.) which prevent direct contact between fastener surfaces under load. This prevents galling. If it was merely to prevent corrosion, would not grease be equally effective?
Thanks!

sweeks

I'd be surprised if copper anti-seize caused any problems.

awac

[QUOTE=HillRider;22860282]As long as we are off on this tangent, that article is not at all germain to bicycle use. If your bottom bracket ever exceeds 450ºF you have worse problems than just Teflon fume exposure.

I regularly reach such temperatures, I think you need to work on your cadence…….lol

zandoval 

For general purposes regular Permatix Anti-Seize compound will work just fine. One jar is all ya need for life.

But is ya wanna get the real stuff for "Titanium" and "Titanium to Aluminum and steel" then ya need Mil-Spec Part Number: MIL-T-83483-1LB MOLY GRADE ANTI-SEIZE COMPOUND WITH MOLYBDENUM DISULFIDE. (Mil-Spec for Aircraft applications)

You can get a Generic 2oz jar on Amazon for about 20 USD (Not Bad!)

When you use Anti-Seize the right way ya use just very, very, little. But if ya see me coming in from the drive way with dark colored fingers and stains on my clothing and tools, then ya know I have been in the Anti-seize compound... Ha

My rule is that if ya have something that will come apart frequently then its Marine Grease. And if ya have something that is of dissimilar metals then its Anti-Seize compound.

Note: I have never worked on Titanium bicycles and all of the titanium devices I have worked on have had detailed lists of the POLs I could use.

Kontact 

Copper antiseize isn't bad, I'm saying that it isn't as ideal as other types because the biggest concern isn't galling. Other types would protect aluminum parts for longer in the wet. That's all.

Kontact 

Galvanic corrosion requires a large amount of direct contact between sufficiently dissimilar materials and (usually for bikes) water moving across them. Motion between them probably contributes as well. Sometimes parts that are bonded to each other do better or worse because of the how thick the epoxy is between them.

Antiseize acts like little ball bearings, keeping galling metals from grinding into each other. But you can't expect that effect to electrically insulate the components, even with ceramic. There will be points of contact. And I'm not saying ceramic antiseize isn't a good idea, just that it isn't going to make the problem disappear.

Keep in mind that galvanic corrosion doesn't happen much toward the middle of the scale. Ti with steel, copper, brass or lead aren't going to react in big way at normal temperatures. Same with aluminum and steel. In bikes, the problem is Ti or carbon with aluminum. For a very long time there weren't any aluminum BB cups, so it was a non-issue.


If you're bike doesn't get wet much, you remove the components often, and the contact between surfaces is minimal - grease works fine. If you want more protection, use antiseize (the regular, cheap stuff works well). If you want the best antiseize, my opinion is that a sacrificial anode material (zinc or magnesium) might be the best protection for aluminum parts.

I use the cheap stuff on my several Ti bikes between pressed cups, seat posts and BB cups. I do worry sometimes about the aluminum shims Litespeed bonded into seat and headtubes on my old Obed, but so far, so good.

Lombard

This is a Ti bike. From what I'm told by other sources as well, copper antiseize is better for Ti than aluminum antiseize.

Wattsup

Ok, so now let's discuss the torque adjustment that should be factored in when using anti-seize. 😁

Kontact 

I know you are building a Ti bike. You already mentioned the Lynskey recommendation and copper is the usual recommendataion for screwing stuff into Ti.

But if you read what I wrote, the recommendation for copper seems to come from industries that have more concerns about galling than Ti bicycles ever do. So I question spending extra money for special anti-galling copper antiseize when the cheaper aluminum/graphite/copper standard stuff may offer better anti-corrosion protection. But the best is likely something more reactive than aluminum, because we really aren't worried about hurting the Ti, but what the aluminum corroding and either sticking in the Ti or falling apart. This zinc antiseize specifically mentions acting as a sacrificial anode, like I mentioned:

The forum blanked out R-E-T-A-R-D-S.
https://www.amazon.com/ZINC-ANTI-SEI...00JRT9L1Y?th=1


There is a great deal of hocus pocus in the bike business. It is not some spin-off of a very well engineered industry like aviation or automotive, but a group of largely well meaning amateurs that are making it up as they go along - borrowing what they can from other industries as appropriate. But there aren't any other industries that use materials, bearing, etc the way bikes use them. Everything on bikes are light, low RPM and designed for minimal drag. They aren't comparable to much of anything.

Lombard

Understand your point about galling vs. seizing/corroding. And what I'm getting from you is that after the fact, I shouldn't worry about redoing it, but I didn't need to buy copper based antiseize when the aluminum antiseize I already had would have been fine and in theory protected better against corrosion?

Sacrificial anodes are an interesting topic. Of course , just like with water heaters, once the sacrificial anode has been totally eaten, you are no longer protected.