Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Severely stuck fixed cup of BB

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Severely stuck fixed cup of BB

Old 02-15-20, 09:23 PM
  #51  
JacobLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 433

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 199 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
So is beating a dead horse without any effort to think things through.
IF it was a good idea, it would have been suggested earlier in the thread by someone knowledgeable.
I should have told you the blunt truth earlier.
Ignore list-
That would have been fine, and all the better if you could do it politely.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 02:50 AM
  #52  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,730
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1005 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
I'm simply amazed at the lack of evidence of penetrating oil being used?
What are you thinking?
Here's my "tool set" for removing these cups-


This or an impact driver with a cup tool would be my weapon of choice.

Penetrating oil does nothing at all to break the cup free, but it does help some once the cup is moving.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 03:08 AM
  #53  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 12,518

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1298 Post(s)
Liked 495 Times in 381 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
This or an impact driver with a cup tool would be my weapon of choice.

Penetrating oil does nothing at all to break the cup free, but it does help some once the cup is moving.
It does certainly help the tool to break the cup free.
Else you are hallucinating.
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 03:16 AM
  #54  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,730
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1005 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
It does certainly help the tool to break the cup free.
Else you are hallucinating.
No it does not. PO does not dissolve the oxidation that is usually the culprit.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 10:44 AM
  #55  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 2,826

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1052 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times in 189 Posts
I believe that there have been tests done using penetrating oils, and that they have been shown significantly reduce (in some cases by 90%) the torque needed to break free artificially rusted bolts. My experience agrees with this: penetrating oil works on rusty bolts. If there are tests (physical tests, not theoretical models*) that prove no benefits for PO, can you share them?

*I'm an engineer that writes models based upon theory, so I like them. But data trumps theory here.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 11:55 AM
  #56  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,730
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1005 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
I believe that there have been tests done using penetrating oils, and that they have been shown significantly reduce (in some cases by 90%) the torque needed to break free artificially rusted bolts. My experience agrees with this: penetrating oil works on rusty bolts. If there are tests (physical tests, not theoretical models*) that prove no benefits for PO, can you share them?

*I'm an engineer that writes models based upon theory, so I like them. But data trumps theory here.
Thats great, then please explain how oil breaks a rusted bolt free. There is no likely mechanism for that to occur. Initial torque is the same. Same with at stuck seatpost, No amount of kroil or any other penetrating oil will do anything to unstick it. - I may help some once the oxidation IS broken free.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 01:50 PM
  #57  
WizardOfBoz
Generally bewildered
 
WizardOfBoz's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Eastern PA, USA
Posts: 2,826

Bikes: 2014 Trek Domane 6.9, 1999 LeMond Zurich, 1978 Schwinn Superior

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1052 Post(s)
Liked 252 Times in 189 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Thats great, then please explain how oil breaks a rusted bolt free. There is no likely mechanism for that to occur. Initial torque is the same. Same with at stuck seatpost, No amount of kroil or any other penetrating oil will do anything to unstick it. - I may help some once the oxidation IS broken free.
Dan, you're using a theory to justify your statement. I'm saying that people have intentionally rusted nuts to bolts under identical torque, and have observed that penetrating oils and other substances (even water!?) lower the torque required to break the nut loose. If data conflicts with theory, we need a new theory.

Since you asked, though, I would suspect the reason why effective penetrating oils do reduce breaking torque has something to do with some effect on the complex physical structure of the rust/metal matrix, and/or with the effect of liquid on the surface energy of rusted steels. I agree with you that they probably don't affect the chemical structure of the rust.

The data from the first of the two videos shows some effect of a single application of POs on breaking torque. Note that other tests have used repeat application/soaking and show a larger effect.




Here's two videos that seems to use a pretty thorough approach to testing and show a modest effect of POs.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 02-16-20 at 02:25 PM.
WizardOfBoz is offline  
Old 02-16-20, 10:29 PM
  #58  
Racing Dan
Senior Member
 
Racing Dan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,730
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1005 Post(s)
Liked 121 Times in 89 Posts
Yeah , ive seen that. The results dry vs PO are really close (for the most part within a few percent) and the sample size i really small. It might as well have been a fluke. Likely is. Obviously no braking free with PO is happening. The other video is with a plastic block. Hardly relevant.
Racing Dan is offline  
Old 02-17-20, 08:33 AM
  #59  
San Rensho 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2005
Posts: 5,820
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 383 Post(s)
Liked 130 Times in 88 Posts
Soak in penetrating oil for a couple of days, I like the ATF /acetone. With a very sharp cold chisel, make a good deep notch on the outside of the cup. Then, use a very blunt chisel or equivalent and put it in the notch. Take a BFH(technical term=big f*in hammer), 2.5 or 5 pound hammer and angle the chisel so that when you hit the chisel it willl turn the cup in the direction that will loosen it. This technique is almost as good as an impact wrench, and in you case, since the cup is so FUBARD, it is probably the best becasue all you have nothing to grab onto in the middle of the cup for all the other wrench methods. This technique just uses the remaining metal of the cup.
__________________
Il faut de l'audace, encore de l'audace, toujours de l'audace

1980 3Rensho-- 1975 Raleigh Sprite 3spd
1990s Raleigh M20 MTB--2007 Windsor Hour (track)
1988 Ducati 750 F1
San Rensho is offline  
Old 02-17-20, 10:03 AM
  #60  
dedhed
SE Wis
 
dedhed's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Milwaukee, WI
Posts: 7,445

Bikes: '68 Raleigh Sprite, '02 Raleigh C500, '84 Raleigh Gran Prix, '91 Trek 400, 2013 Novara Randonee, 1990 Trek 970

Mentioned: 27 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1521 Post(s)
Liked 1,038 Times in 711 Posts
Originally Posted by Racing Dan View Post
Obviously no braking free with PO is happening.
That may well be, but enough people who deal with rusted fasteners on an everyday basis have experienced results and decided it does provide enough of a benefit that millions of $$ are spent each year on penetrating oils.
dedhed is offline  
Old 02-17-20, 12:54 PM
  #61  
JacobLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 433

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 199 Times in 101 Posts
I suppose at this point the most important question is for Eamon:

Any luck with it?
JacobLee is offline  
Old 02-18-20, 09:40 AM
  #62  
jadocs
Senior Member
 
jadocs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2018
Location: USA
Posts: 2,128

Bikes: Ti, Mn Cr Ni Mo Nb, Al, C

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 906 Post(s)
Liked 497 Times in 333 Posts
I just want to know if the OP was turning it in the correct direction.
jadocs is offline  
Old 02-19-20, 12:10 PM
  #63  
squirtdad
Senior Member
 
squirtdad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: San Jose (Willow Glen) Ca
Posts: 7,388

Bikes: 85 team Miyata (modern 5800 105) , '84 Team Miyata,(dura ace old school) '82 nishiski,

Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1301 Post(s)
Liked 552 Times in 394 Posts
Freeze-off and the sheldon bolt method with a) good quality bolt )long lever (often 2 person job) c) turning the right way
__________________
Life is too short not to ride the best bike you have, as much as you can
squirtdad is offline  
Old 02-21-20, 06:56 PM
  #64  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 1,377

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Paramount, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 470 Times in 355 Posts
Seems that the OP hasn't been here for at least ten days. It must have become a non-problem for him. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is online now  
Old 02-21-20, 10:44 PM
  #65  
Russ Roth
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Location: South Shore of Long Island
Posts: 1,469

Bikes: 2010 Carrera Volans, 2015 C-Dale Trail 2sl, 2017 Raleigh Rush Hour, 2017 Blue Proseccio, 1992 Giant Perigee, 80s Gitane Rallye Tandem

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 538 Post(s)
Liked 394 Times in 302 Posts
Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
How about you?
Most bike mechanics aren't going to be equipped with 1/2" or larger impact wrenches and an air compressor to keep up.
And you still have to hold the rest of the bike.
My "tool set" in post 7 hasn't failed me yet in 6 "frozen" cups.
Multiple applications of Liquid Wrench dribbled in the shell from the opposite side to run down into the threads. 1st application, keep dribbling as long as it keeps running into the threads.
7 whacks & 6 cups. I was too gentle on the very 1st whack. 2nd whack I KNEW the tool would stay in place.

You still need a "tool retainer". Else you're going to have stripped tools and possibly worse problems.
At that point, a 4 lb. hammer takes less set up time. You don't have to connect it to its "power supply". You don't have to coil up & stow said "power supply".
It's akin to having your brain surgeon use a hammer & chisel to crack your skull.
Lumping your two posts together. Most shops, or at least the 4 shops I worked in already had air compressors with runs to each stand. I didn't leave my impact wrench at any of them and for whatever reason no shop ever had one but there were a number of times that I brought it in to deal with a recalcitrant BB. Really doesn't take much to do the job. Course that was the good old days and I don't own an air compressor and an air impact driver. Though I'm betting any of the modern 18-20v impact wrenches with a 4ah battery will do the job just as nicely without all the messy coils or cords. And using nuts and bolts I've broken a number of fixed cups free with impact. The tools work, if someone has them already its the easy way to go.

Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...not certain you've used an impact wrench in a circumstance like this. It's not like going at a lug nut on a car wheel, and the bicycle itself tends to move around easily. So the business end of the tool either slips out or can damage the little teeth in the BB fitting (they are either aluminum or plastic.) So it might work, but you're way better off bolting the tool to the sealed unit spindle with a properly sized bolt and some fender washers, putting either an adjustable or (better) properly sized box end wrench on the tool, and hitting the wrench with a mallet or hammer. Plus you get to use a hammer.
I actually think an impact wrench is the best way to remove a stuck cartridge BB and its yet to fail me. Impacts don't really torque on things which is what causes cartridge BB tools to slip out. For installs and most removals I use a wrench on the tool with the wrench almost against the BB, this prevents the BB tool from camming out. Similarly an impact wrench never seems to can out and the bicycle doesn't move all that much sitting in a stand.
Russ Roth is offline  
Old 02-21-20, 11:12 PM
  #66  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 12,518

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1298 Post(s)
Liked 495 Times in 381 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Lumping your two posts together. Most shops, or at least the 4 shops I worked in already had air compressors with runs to each stand. I didn't leave my impact wrench at any of them and for whatever reason no shop ever had one but there were a number of times that I brought it in to deal with a recalcitrant BB. Really doesn't take much to do the job. Course that was the good old days and I don't own an air compressor and an air impact driver. Though I'm betting any of the modern 18-20v impact wrenches with a 4ah battery will do the job just as nicely without all the messy coils or cords. And using nuts and bolts I've broken a number of fixed cups free with impact. The tools work, if someone has them already its the easy way to go.


I actually think an impact wrench is the best way to remove a stuck cartridge BB and its yet to fail me. Impacts don't really torque on things which is what causes cartridge BB tools to slip out. For installs and most removals I use a wrench on the tool with the wrench almost against the BB, this prevents the BB tool from camming out. Similarly an impact wrench never seems to can out and the bicycle doesn't move all that much sitting in a stand.
Such a slow day that you have to dig up 6 day old posts to argue about?
Bill Kapaun is offline  
Old 02-21-20, 11:38 PM
  #67  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 19,382

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 274 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20560 Post(s)
Liked 3,625 Times in 2,657 Posts
.
...must be quite a stand.
3alarmer is online now  
Old 02-22-20, 05:11 AM
  #68  
guy153
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2019
Posts: 557
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 204 Post(s)
Liked 110 Times in 89 Posts
Originally Posted by stevoo View Post
I have run across this challenge on occasion.
Quick and easy to weld a big nut or bar etc to the cup. Then BIG wrench will remove.

Good luck
Yes this worked for me. Just welded a bit of square tube directly to the cup and then used it as a wrench. The heat from the welding probably also helps to loosen it. But just getting a decent purchase on those damn things is half the struggle.
guy153 is offline  
Old 02-22-20, 12:11 PM
  #69  
JacobLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 433

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 199 Times in 101 Posts
Originally Posted by Russ Roth View Post
Lumping your two posts together. Most shops, or at least the 4 shops I worked in already had air compressors with runs to each stand. I didn't leave my impact wrench at any of them and for whatever reason no shop ever had one but there were a number of times that I brought it in to deal with a recalcitrant BB. Really doesn't take much to do the job. Course that was the good old days and I don't own an air compressor and an air impact driver. Though I'm betting any of the modern 18-20v impact wrenches with a 4ah battery will do the job just as nicely without all the messy coils or cords. And using nuts and bolts I've broken a number of fixed cups free with impact. The tools work, if someone has them already its the easy way to go.


I actually think an impact wrench is the best way to remove a stuck cartridge BB and its yet to fail me. Impacts don't really torque on things which is what causes cartridge BB tools to slip out. For installs and most removals I use a wrench on the tool with the wrench almost against the BB, this prevents the BB tool from camming out. Similarly an impact wrench never seems to can out and the bicycle doesn't move all that much sitting in a stand.
I was the one who brought up the impact thing a week ago, and it was just to ask if anyone had tried it. I guess the answer is yes. Good to know. After that whole kerfuffle, I went back and read some old threads and found that mentioning impact wrenches starts a good fight every time. Sorta funny.
JacobLee is offline  
Old 02-23-20, 05:01 PM
  #70  
ign1te
Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Posts: 33
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Make sure you know that you are rotating it off in the right direction. After that just nuke the cup with a torch, redhot prefereable. This is assuming it is a steel frame and not aluminium.
ign1te is offline  
Likes For ign1te:
Old 02-23-20, 05:30 PM
  #71  
Mad Honk 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2019
Location: Bloomington, IN
Posts: 1,377

Bikes: Trek 770, Trek 760, Schwinn Paramount, Patelli Professional, Othon Ochsner

Mentioned: 26 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 470 Times in 355 Posts
Wow!
I have been using air wrenches since the 1970's and they are far superior to the hand methods being expressed here. But in every thing, they do a good job and far quicker than by hand. If you have ever been working in the industry as a wrench you will know your paycheck is going to be based on the speed of your repairs. The air wrenches speed up the work process. The current discussions are about air versus battery power. But they both speed up the work process. I currently use both systems, air for big jobs and battery for small jobs. But they both keep my speed of repairs up. So to keep the kerfuffule going I will add my $.02 worth.
It is interesting that today we use torque bars for our impact wrenches to keep the wrench from putting too much pressure on the parts we are bolting on. A good example is bolting a brake caliper too tight and warping it making it useless for braking. Smiles, MH
Mad Honk is online now  
Old 02-23-20, 05:58 PM
  #72  
tammons
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 121
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 41 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 3 Posts
I just removed one, original from a 79 bike. It would not budge even with PB blaster, until I fed it some Fall off (ATF/Acetone 50/50 mix).
It separates so you have to shake it up every time you apply.
2 days later and came off with almost no effort.

Last edited by tammons; 02-24-20 at 06:08 AM.
tammons is offline  
Old 02-23-20, 09:57 PM
  #73  
EamonPVD
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by davidad View Post
The only one I have ever taken off I used a vise to hold the flats on the cup and the frame as a lever.
Iím waiting on a decent vise and gonna give this method a go.

thanks for all the info everyone
EamonPVD is offline  
Old 02-26-20, 03:10 PM
  #74  
EamonPVD
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 54
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
The bench vice worked like a freakin charm. To those who were wondering- pb blastered it for a lil while before the bench vise.
EamonPVD is offline  
Likes For EamonPVD:
Old 02-26-20, 09:40 PM
  #75  
JacobLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2019
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 433

Bikes: More Than Enough

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 182 Post(s)
Liked 199 Times in 101 Posts
Good on ya, mate.
JacobLee is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.