merziac

And I'm still kicking myself for not, at one point there were holdovers that were under $1000 and I drug my feet looking for my size which there had been and missed out, ef me.

cudak888 

Those Prugnat 62's say it all.

-Kurt

ascherer 

I'll see your 62s and raise you a Mercian.

P!N20

Not exactly a comparison, but this dude actually rides it:
WARNING: He likes it.

cudak888 

It sounds like one of those Top Gear reviews where they're trying not to tick off the manufacturer by avoiding comparisons with the bikes that brought it about - thus ensuring all the comments wind up positive.

If he isn't a paid shill for Raleigh (he has 17K followers from his reviews and unboxing - definitely a possibility), he's probably comparing it against all the MTBs and modern gravel bikes that comprise the bulk of his other review videos. Of course an old-fashioned 753 road bike on asphalt is going to feel great by comparison.

-Kurt

capt_velo

I like the concept and the bike, but in all fairness, I can't remember a review where the bike wasn't liked. I'm not sure if bikes are really all that good or if reviewers are under the thumb of the manufacturers.

steelbikeguy

somewhat off-topic... I'm amazed that he could handle a camera on a stick well enough to pan around from the cranks to the derailleur, etc., without either sticking the camera into the spokes or riding off the road! The man has skills!

He did say that he's been a big TI-Raleigh fan since boyhood, so I'm inclined to permit some gushing about the bike simply for the sake of nostalgia. I think the change to toe clips and friction shifting and narrow(?) bars is enough to just push a lot of nostalgia buttons. He did mention having to remember how to flip the pedals up. Overall, his comments on the bike were largely just about the older design and parts and not particularly specific to the reproduction frame itself.

I left a comment asking if he could do a comparison between the reproduction and the original. In the video, he says he consulted with Neil McGowran, who has put together a great compilation of info on the SBDU bikes....
https://raleigh-sb4059.com/2016/03/0...mber-timeline/
I'm hoping Mr. McGowran can loan him a SBDU bike for a proper comparison.

Steve in Peoria

noobinsf 

I dunno -- I've heard Jeremy Clarkson saying something feels like "absolute perfection" enough times to know a phony endorsement. This rider's reaction is more akin to the time the Top Gear boys raced in Monte Carlo, when it looked like Jeremy was going to cry. This bike clearly stirred the tester, and that's a good thing.

repechage

Actually, I am pretty sure the shift levers are ENE, they have the spool capacity to sweep 11 cogs BUT are ratchet at best, not index.

Maybe just a 753 seat tube and steerer?

cudak888 

Fair point, there may be some genuine enjoyment coming through. After all, if we completely ignore the paint job, it's a review of a nice, new 753 frame - which should be nice on its own merits.

You know, I just took it for granted that nobody would ever release anything with friction in this era. Makes you wonder all the more what they were thinking by creating a compact frame sloping top tube.

-Kurt

repechage

Eroica Safe, but good luck that they will hold the 2021 California event in the Spring.

ShannonM

A couple of degrees of top tube slope does not a compact frame make.

I can understand the argument that those 2 degrees shouldn't be there, given that the original bike didn't have them. I can even understand that those 2 degrees ruin the bike for you, although I pretty fervently disagree. Mostly because I don't consider it a replica, but rather a tribute, so my standards are different. (But then, I'd rather have that Brian Bayliss-built, decaled, and painted replica Colnago than any real one ever made, unless Eddy rode it, and even then I'd probably want the Bayliss.)

But calling it a compact is hyperbole. It isn't.

--Shannon

NatusEstInSuht

According to specs on the Raleigh website, Maxway used a full set of 753 tubes in making the frames,

Fork - Raleigh Ti Replica Full Reynolds 753 Custom Made Tubing, Brazed Lugs
Frame - Raleigh Ti Replica Full Reynolds 753 Custom Made Tubing, Brazed Lugs
https://www.raleigh.co.uk/gb/en/ti-r...ition-bicycle/

While this bike is not for me (cost), it seems to have earned positive reviews.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/reviews/...eplica-review/

cudak888 

...and we're back to where the thread started.

Fair point, it's not a compact frame. I'm going to edit that previous post. It gets a bit laborious to type "sloping top tube" every time; looks like my brain took the quick way out.

I've said this before, but If Raleigh wasn't trying to pass this off as a fairly faithful attempt at an SBDU tribute (I'm not going to elevate it to replica - it isn't), I wouldn't be as miffed about that top tube. But they've gone through all the effort of spec'ing the frame with friction shifting, non-aero brake levers, long horizontal dropouts (admittedly, debatable whether the result is nice or not, but they made the effort) and a host of other usability concessions to give it a proper period look - right down to building it with 753.

...and then they decide to chuck all this effort to the wind by ignoring one of the fundamental concepts that separate this era of lugged steel bikes from everything else? No, I won't let that pass. It's the principle of the thing.

-Kurt

cudak888 

SBDU Neil has posted a video about the sloping top tube - and an interesting theory about why Raleigh got this wrong:


-Kurt

repechage

What they showed in the promotional mfg video was not silver brazing... More like Brass....
So much for low temp.

repechage

Of the period, Raleigh and many others measured center to top as noted, so, in keeping with retro assumptions, the bike is built "correct" for the seat tube length.
Scaling up or down the TdF winning bike is treacherous, but as from the look of it, all the bikes have a rising top tube.
I think it was done knowlingly.
MAYBE adapting to the off the shelf lugs used? Adjusting angles on a investment cast lug is not a sound production plan.
More in keeping with how lugged builders adapt to threadless steerers from time to time, the Richard Sachs lug line as one example range.

Should have just stated they did it on purpose.
There are plenty of adaptations on this frame, 130mm spacing...

NatusEstInSuht

Do you have a link to this video? Raleigh has three videos on this bike posted to its official YouTube site, but none seem to show any footage of them brazing this frame.
Thank you in advance.

cudak888 

The gentleman in the video is one of the foremost - if not the foremost authority on SBDUs, and has more of these things on hand for reference than Raleigh UK themselves.

He wouldn't have made a video indicating that the replica geometry was incorrect if it was correct.

-Kurt

iab

It's a bike. They are inherently fun. As soon as I read as I read things like "dead", "lively", "tracks", "vertically compliant, laterally stiff", or any other bullsh*t when a person likes or dislikes a bike, I laugh. Reminds me of Miles, A little citrus, maybe some strawberry… passion fruit… and there’s the faintest soupcon of like… asparagus… and just a… a flutter of a nutty Edam cheese.

Pros have been riding every geometry, wheel/tire setup, component combination imaginable. They will all take those "dead", "lively", "tracks", "vertically compliant, laterally stiff" bikes and crush every soul on this forum. The bike is moot.

It's a bike people, they are fun. And now we have 3 pages of sucking the fun out of bikes. Well done.

BFisher

"I'm getting notes of lemongrass..."

Everyone's a cicerone these days.

JohnDThompson 

It seems the bike would be better described as a "tribute" than as a "replica."

Doug Fattic 

If Raleigh asked me to design a frame as a modern tribute to their 70’s flagship racing bicycle (I’m a British trained 753 certified builder - but they never would) I wouldn’t do it that much different than this new one – including sloping the top tube a little. I bet I am also the only BFC&V member who was actually watched them build 753 frames in Ilkeston.

Let’s start with who would be a target market for a new Raleigh steel bicycle with a 1” top tube. My guess it would be someone that wanted one 40 years ago and now in the 60’s and 70’s has a 2nd chance. They could also be followers of Jan Heine who promotes the advantages of skinny thin tubed frames. These potential now fatter and less flexible buyers in their later years are not likely to still be comfortable with 5 to 10 cm of seat to handlebar drop they would have had when they were younger, thinner and faster. In other words no slammed stems. Let’s think of how to compensate for that.

Almost all of my older framebuilding class students/customers have found their balance point on a fitting bike to require a 72º or less seat angle. That takes the pressure off of their hands now holding up their enlarged upper body. They also correspondingly like higher handlebars with little drop compared to their seat. This means they need to ride as big a frame as possible (read longer head tube) that they can still comfortably straddle or a goofy amount of quill stem will be sticking out above the head tube.

Now that we have the parameters of need, we can start to design a frame that will work for them. A shallower seat angle will also require a shallower head angle or Raleigh lawyers will get grumpy about the liability of toe overlap. 72/72 will make our aging market happier riders than 73/73. A sloping top tube can be easily obtained by using more commonly available 74º lugs. It isn’t just the top and seat lugs but also the down tube lug angle that has to agree. That lug is often what controls the choice of lugs. Heat treated tubes require exact lug angles to avoid more expensive hand labor. I’m still willing to bet that available choices for the 3 lugs that fit 1” top tubes with a shape representative of the old is the primary reason for the slope of the tube and that it was intentional.

While eagle eyed Kurt dislikes anything but a dead level top tube, most riders don’t mind a little top tube slope. I know this because most of my students build frames with a little slope because of the availability of the lugs they prefer to use. I show all of them a bicycle or two in the shop that has up to 2º of slope and ask them if they notice or mind. Almost nobody ever has (and I’ve taught hundreds of students how to make frames since 1976). Occasionally a level top tube is important to someone. They are the exception.

Again the advantage of a sloping top tube is that it reduces the amount of stem extension above the headset for a given straddle height – a plus for our aging market that needs higher handlebars. Other factors I would do would be to lower the bottom bracket height from 270/75mm to 260mm. This allows a bigger frame to be straddled. It is unlikely the buyer will be pedaling through corners at speed anymore. If they are they are likely to be using clipless pedals with more clearance. A bigger frame also means a longer head tube that reduces stem extension. I would also put in a 1cm spacer in the headset to further help hide our quill stem extension. The steerer could be cut shorter and the spacer eliminated if someone wanted a deeper drop. For that matter I would also add a bit of height to the top tube lug for the same reason.

I would also make the brake distance be able to fit old school 47/57mm brakes. “Short reach” brakes with 39/49 clearance came in the late 70’s. However riders like much wider tires now so longer reach brakes would be more popular today. And I would keep the rear width 130mm so most new road wheels would fit. And while we are at it add 10 or more mms to the chain stay length since the cyclist will be siting further back. All of these tweaks would not be big changes from the original specs but would certainly make an older rider more comfortable. It is going to be a rare person able to collect social security that would want a flat out 1980 racing bicycle.

To sum up, I would modify the original racing design a bit to fit the riders most likely to buy a tribute model. The color scheme would be enough to make is seem original. Of course if someone asked my opinion I would suggest going to a custom builder and get everything exactly like you wanted.

Wildwood 

Hehehehehe, @Doug Fattic -

I’ve been full custom (steel) with Jon Tallerico, semi-custom with Craig Calfee and also a Co-Motion tandem.

Listening to you tell me what I might need and why. And explaining how to achieve what I want......,

......makes me want to go find a builder and have that handling/comfort/color discussion.

Lugged steel Tallerico, slightly sloping tt, modest extension on 1 1/8” head-tube, fastback stays. CF fork identified at start of design process. Still rockin original Campy10. If both buyer ‘n builder get it right, it lasts.
A recent pic:

Makes me smile

nomadmax 

Which is it?

"It's a crying shame big manufacturers don't make steel frame/fork, quill stem, down tube shifter, rim brake bikes anymore".

"That's a miserable excuse for a currently produced bicycle; the steel frame has a non-level top tube, drop outs that don't look like the old ones, the down tube shifters are friction only and the decals are all wrong".

It's no wonder to me why companies don't make bikes like this anymore.