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Polarized training (PT)...Good for low volume rider?

Old 02-08-21, 07:54 AM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
I can see the sarcasm.

I use 34 / 32 gears which is the smallest gear on my gravel bike on very steep gradients ~20%.

I was unable to do it sitted in the saddle before strength training. Now I can
When sitting in the saddle, you're not using anywhere near the maximum amount of force that your muscles can produce. Whatever allowed you to do this, it almost certainly wasn't strength training.
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Old 02-08-21, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
I maintain that any fitness is better than no fitness. I don't think that's really an issue. When faced with anything versus nothing, I'd always choose something: strength training, running, swimming, anything. Just that general fitness is worth a lot. The blood plasma volume, the capillary density, lower body fat, stronger connective tissue, etc., etc.

And if you're talking about a low enough performance level, it really and truly just doesn't matter. There are simply too many other variables that come into play that affect mediocre performances (either general or specific to an individual). When you talk about higher levels of performance, however, cost-benefit has to be carefully weighed.

For 2, I think experiments have determined this. Tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of elite cyclists over the last 100 years were the experiment. Again, the higher levels of performance necessitate maximum efficiency and effectiveness.
So what is your answer to to 2)? Egan just recently posted on his Instagram a short clip from the gym. I know that cross country skiers who have excellent endurance abilities and maybe even higher VO2 Max than cyclists spend a lot of time in the gym. Whole body for them obviously, triceps and shoulders do a lot of work.

Edit: although of course if they would go up a lot more than this may change a little. The relatively recent Tour du Ski has a final leg where they start with the leader first and whoever finishes first wins. It is basically up a black slope. Lighter, shorter skiers have a massive advantage here.

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Old 02-08-21, 08:14 AM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
So what is your answer to to 2)? Egan just recently posted on his Instagram a short clip from the gym. I know that cross country skiers who have excellent endurance abilities and maybe even higher VO2 Max than cyclists spend a lot of time in the gym. Whole body for them obviously, triceps and shoulders do a lot of work.

Edit: although of course if they would go up a lot more than this may change a little. The relatively recent Tour du Ski has a final leg where they start with the leader first and whoever finishes first wins. It is basically up a black slope. Lighter, shorter skiers have a massive advantage here.
My understanding is that most pros strength train, and do so year round. There are certainly many prominent coaches who support the idea. But there are also those who don't.

While what Rubick says is true, generally you want to practice what you are actually doing, there's a declining marginal benefit for every additional hour spent on the bike. An amateur rider going from 5 to 6 hours a week is going to see a lot more benefit that a pro going from 20 to 21 hours. At some point, cross training (including strength training), particularly with the goal of injury prevention, likely becomes a better use of your time even when considered from a pure cycling perspective.

I said above that my understanding is that most cyclists strength train year round. However, I don't think they are necessarily doing the *same* strength training year round. During the offseason, the goal will likely be to build stronger legs, but that training conflicts too much with cycling during periods of intense training and/or racing. As such, the volume of this is reduced considerably. However, things like core work are likely still done consistently throughout the year. The goal here isn't to sacrifice cycling training or detract from it in any way, but rather to supplement it with an activity that isn't particularly taxing and can help reduce the risk of injury (and thus a lot of missed cycling time).

All of this is somewhat moot though since none of us are pro cyclists. From a long term health and performance perspective, lifting is beneficial despite the fact that it many not be optimal to maximize our performance over the next few months.
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Old 02-08-21, 08:20 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by OBoile
When sitting in the saddle, you're not using anywhere near the maximum amount of force that your muscles can produce. Whatever allowed you to do this, it almost certainly wasn't strength training.
I'd state this a little differently. I'd say it wasn't an increase in strength rather than strength training. It's possible for a relatively untrained athlete that adaptations associated with strength training could result in improved endurance performance.
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Old 02-08-21, 08:24 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
I know that cross country skiers who have excellent endurance abilities and maybe even higher VO2 Max than cyclists spend a lot of time in the gym.
As far as I know, there are no cross country skis with gears that allow the athlete to control amount of force and speed of force applied. I may be wrong though.
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Old 02-08-21, 08:39 AM
  #81  
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Anecdotes don't matter for a whole lot. But let me share a 1:1 on this weights thing from our A-group ride in the two years pre-Covid. Just chatting..........

We had a young guy join the group. Just out of college. Probably about 6 foot tall, mild "lifter" build. He'd come over from a general fitness riding group that would do the weekend and weeknight B-pace rides. He still lifted a fair bit. He got better at the weeknight A-ride and could mix it up, but would usually get dropped about 1/2 way through every time. He was able to mostly keep up as he DID start doing some intervals or hard work on the bike. He never really added enough extra volume, or intervals. Just kept at the easier weekend rides that were like 60 to 80mi at a leisurely 18mph or so. Then he would lift. Sure, dude could sprint right nice (once or twice). But he never had the fitness to stay with the group the whole way. He never worked on the bike fitness enough. Toss two back to back 2min hills at him, off the back. Done.

This "weights" topic in here gets a little tired. If you're not a pro or high level amateur sprinter, I feel the whole gym thing just needs to remain an "overall health and injury prevention" tool. It's not some magic bullet to offset more miles.

If you're not paid to race bikes or aren't chasing some elite thing.............no harm in some weights to still be able to open the random pickle jar or prevent injuries if you go on a run or hike or something.

That's how I look at it. I'm not paid to ride a bike. But, if I hurt myself on a run or hiking with the kids because I've let myself go so much from only riding the bike.............that injury will keep me off the bike and I'll lose what little fitness I have.

I still have weight bearing chores around the house. Build that, move that, tear that up, dig that, lift that. If I only ever ride the bike and don't do some plank, pushups, squats, etc..........I run the risk of doing that stuff and hurting myself.

I also am a bit vain. If I work hard on the bike and am not paid for it, I at least want to "look" decent with my shirt off. Why ride 7 hours a week just to look terrible with a shirt off. "Gun show" legs and then random shapeless upper.
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Old 02-08-21, 09:13 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
, I feel the whole gym thing just needs to remain an "overall health and injury prevention" tool. It's not some magic bullet to offset more miles.
Yep.

I think there is some evidence that suggests that weight lifting improves cardiovascular performance, but for those of us that aren't really stacking it on, we'd probably benefit more from more and/or harder miles on the bike, from a pure performance perspective.
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Old 02-08-21, 10:01 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by asgelle
As far as I know, there are no cross country skis with gears that allow the athlete to control amount of force and speed of force applied. I may be wrong though.
So?

And you don't ski much, do you?
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Old 02-08-21, 10:15 AM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
So?

And you don't ski much, do you?
I said there might be skis with gears. I didn't know.

But unlike skiing where the the athlete can't control the force required to cover the course, cycling allows one to self select the best force and speed of muscular contraction. So it would make sense that skiers need to increase the maximum force they can produce while cyclists don't.
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Old 02-08-21, 11:54 AM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I said there might be skis with gears. I didn't know.

But unlike skiing where the the athlete can't control the force required to cover the course, cycling allows one to self select the best force and speed of muscular contraction. So it would make sense that skiers need to increase the maximum force they can produce while cyclists don't.
No, it doesn't, some skiers don't even use the arms in a sprint, if they aren't 100% fresh at the end of a long race they might just try and move the legs as fast as possible. Up a hill you can try to glide more or really heave yourself up with your upper body.

ps skis with gears is a ludicrous idea, I thought you were trolling but you bring it up again...what a joke.
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Old 02-08-21, 12:03 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by cubewheels
Yup, there's other factor involved like adopting a different pedaling technique when the gradient gets real steep. Strength training still played a bigger role, particularly in strengthening the core muscles as I used to have weak core muscles. My new pedaling technique engaged the core muscles more than before as if I'm pedaling out of the saddle.
Your core musculature wasn't taxed beyond it's ability previously. Cycling, while seated in particular, isn't exactly strenuous on ones core.
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Old 02-08-21, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by asgelle
I'd state this a little differently. I'd say it wasn't an increase in strength rather than strength training. It's possible for a relatively untrained athlete that adaptations associated with strength training could result in improved endurance performance.
Sure, but if that's the case, then endurance was his issue when going up a steep hill.
If you're not *strong* enough to pedal up a 20% gradient in a 34-32 gear, how are you able to walk up stairs?
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Old 02-08-21, 12:29 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
ps skis with gears is a ludicrous idea, I thought you were trolling but you bring it up again...what a joke.
O.K. so maybe skiing isn't a good analogy for cycling after all.
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Old 02-08-21, 12:58 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by ZHVelo
So what is your answer to to 2)? Egan just recently posted on his Instagram a short clip from the gym. I know that cross country skiers who have excellent endurance abilities and maybe even higher VO2 Max than cyclists spend a lot of time in the gym. Whole body for them obviously, triceps and shoulders do a lot of work.
My answer is on-the-bike; that's what elite cyclists have done as long as the sport has been around.

Egan posts in February. But in June?
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Old 02-08-21, 01:06 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile

I said above that my understanding is that most cyclists strength train year round. However, I don't think they are necessarily doing the *same* strength training year round. During the offseason, the goal will likely be to build stronger legs, but that training conflicts too much with cycling during periods of intense training and/or racing. As such, the volume of this is reduced considerably. However, things like core work are likely still done consistently throughout the year. The goal here isn't to sacrifice cycling training or detract from it in any way, but rather to supplement it with an activity that isn't particularly taxing and can help reduce the risk of injury (and thus a lot of missed cycling time).
That's stretching the boundaries of "strength" training. And even then, I very seriously doubt it. Are guys doing core work in the middle of a three week grand tour? What about during the spring classics? Training camps? Very doubtful.

Originally Posted by OBoile
All of this is somewhat moot though since none of us are pro cyclists. From a long term health and performance perspective, lifting is beneficial despite the fact that it many not be optimal to maximize our performance over the next few months.
Perhaps not moot because it's still applicable. Even more so because people that aren't pros don't have the time and resources to dedicate to any additional or ancillary benefit. So in that context, with a finite amount of time and energy, from a performance perspective, again, it's just not possible to assert that it is more beneficial than actual riding, either in the short or the long term. Just "beneficial" in and of itself would be up to the individual to decide, I guess.

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Old 02-08-21, 01:13 PM
  #91  
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Random thoughts on the topic: maybe strength training can help for people who specialize in U.S.-style criterium racing. I do know that the guys I used to ride with who spent a significant time in the gym weren't always able to keep up on climbs with us skinny, weight-room-averse guys with pathetic Michael Rasmussen-looking upper bodies.

And I read an passing comment by a sports medicine specialist recently who mentioned that pro road cyclists' legs are no stronger than those of the average healthy adult.

Eddy Merckx, when asked, back in the '70s, whether he did weight training: "You don't need big muscles to steer a bicycle." (Reworded for maximum clarity: the single most successful cyclist in history didn't do weight training.)
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Old 02-08-21, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
Your core musculature wasn't taxed beyond it's ability previously. Cycling, while seated in particular, isn't exactly strenuous on ones core.
I want to qualify this first to say I don't intend to feed the troll above at all in this topic, but "plank" is almost a meme level visual of semi-serious racers all the way up to pros for keeping a strong core. Lots of folks do "meme" like pics of them stopping mid-ride in the middle of a climb or route planking randomly.

Good core, more power to pedals, less wasted motion.

It's an exception for most people, as not many TT, but if you're going to do stuff like setup a TT bike for time trial and not long course triathlon you may find more of your forearms on the pads than the tips of your elbows. Meaning, any amount of lasting core strength you have can be handy as you're reaching.

I feel 100% better in my TT position recently after taking up some daily plank and pushups.

YMMV.
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Old 02-08-21, 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
That's stretching the boundaries of "strength" training. And even then, I very seriously doubt it. Are guys doing core work in the middle of a three week grand tour? What about during the spring classics? Training camps? Very doubtful.
Definitely still strength training. Are they doing it during the classics, yes I imagine they are. In the middle of a 3 week stage race, probably not. I would image it is done in training camps. I don't think the absence of 3 weeks changes invalidates the idea that they're doing it year round. That's reaching pretty hard for a technicality IMO.
ETA: I'm sure typical strength work is still done, just at a lower volume/intensity so as not to interfere with one's riding schedule.


Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Perhaps not moot because it's still applicable. Even more so because people that aren't pros don't have the time and resources to dedicate to any additional or ancillary benefit. So in that context, with a finite amount of time and energy, from a performance perspective, again, it's just not possible to assert that it is more beneficial than actual riding, either in the short or the long term. Just "beneficial" in and of itself would be up to the individual to decide, I guess.
One of the biggest detriments to performance in the master's athletes is a loss of muscle mass. If you want to maintain as much ability for as long as possible, I'd suggest including lifting in your training. Particularly if you care about performance in anything requiring high power outputs.

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Old 02-08-21, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Trakhak
Random thoughts on the topic: maybe strength training can help for people who specialize in U.S.-style criterium racing.
Anecdotal as always, but I specialize in crits (only meaning I suck less at them relatively speaking than I do at other things) and always have, racing elite and pro crits from the age of 20, back when I spent the winter months in the gym, until now when I don't.

The things that made me better at crits, in no particular order: 1) race craft/pack flow, 2) much higher ftp and longer duration CPs, 3) high cadence, high-power efforts rather than standing up and sprinting out of turns.

The latter single-handedly took me from getting dropped an hour in to a PRT crit to a top 15 in that same crit the next year.

More importantly, and more easily measured, my power at every single duration, from 1 sec to 5+ hours, improved significantly after I stopped using the weight room in the winter and instead focused on on-the-bike workouts. And I was 20-22 at the time and had been riding for 4-6 years versus my mid 30s now. 1 sec went from 1351 (once) to just over 1500 ( a few times, over 1450 many more).1 minute went from 700 - 738. 5 mins from 394-434, 20 from 330-372, 3 hour from 280 - 302.

Now for me personally, the above power comparisons are slightly moot, because I don't have any time or energy to go to the weight room (though that would make for an interesting comparison if I wanted to take the risk and try it out), but even if I did, the only thing I would change about my current training is that I'd spend 14-16 hours on the bike instead of 8-12. And I still wouldn't go to the weight room. Or do any core. I think core is a massive waste of time going for anyone that's active and without actual core issues, but that's an entirely different can of worms.

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Old 02-08-21, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by burnthesheep
I want to qualify this first to say I don't intend to feed the troll above at all in this topic, but "plank" is almost a meme level visual of semi-serious racers all the way up to pros for keeping a strong core. Lots of folks do "meme" like pics of them stopping mid-ride in the middle of a climb or route planking randomly.

Good core, more power to pedals, less wasted motion.

It's an exception for most people, as not many TT, but if you're going to do stuff like setup a TT bike for time trial and not long course triathlon you may find more of your forearms on the pads than the tips of your elbows. Meaning, any amount of lasting core strength you have can be handy as you're reaching.

I feel 100% better in my TT position recently after taking up some daily plank and pushups.

YMMV.
I agree with this 100%.

But, this isn't what that cube guy was saying. He's talking about climbing a 20% gradient while seated and implying that the limiting factor was his maximum strength rather than his ability to hold a position comfortably over an extended period of time. Or at least, that was my understanding.
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Old 02-08-21, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
Definitely still strength training. Are they doing it during the classics, yes I imagine they are. In the middle of a 3 week stage race, probably not. I would image it is done in training camps. I don't think the absence of 3 weeks changes invalidates the idea that they're doing it year round. That's reaching pretty hard for a technicality IMO.
ETA: I'm sure typical strength work is still done, just at a lower volume/intensity so as not to interfere with one's riding schedule.

One of the biggest detriments to performance in the master's athletes is a loss of muscle mass. If you want to maintain as much ability for as long as possible, I'd suggest including lifting in your training. Particularly if you care about performance in anything requiring high power outputs. https://youtu.be/StnxjISyeWg?t=348
The three week stage race may be an outlier, but when combined with training camps and lots of on the road travel, it becomes a significant part of the year. I, for one, do not think people do core year round. Or some, ever.

I'd actually like to lose some muscle mass. I'm a bit bigger/wider than many of my racing peers, and it's always irked me.

As far as performance with high power outputs, it's not my ability to hit high power that's the issue. Never has been, and I suspect will not be for any forseeable time (maybe in 10-15 years when I get to my 50s?. My ability to hold high power, however, is definitely the issue.

And as I keep repeating ad nauseum, strength is not what holds me or anyone else back in that regard.

There was a great article about Amber Neben (?) and Tim Cusick describing how in her 40s she wasn't improving max power at any particular duration, but was improving how long she could hold any particular power. That sounds good to me!
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Old 02-08-21, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
The three week stage race may be an outlier, but when combined with training camps and lots of on the road travel, it becomes a significant part of the year. I, for one, do not think people do core year round. Or some, ever.
I'm sure there are pros that never do any strength work. That's why I'm not 100% sold on it either. But it does seem to be the majority do at this point. Certainly most coaches that one hears about support the idea.

But I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be done during a training camp? I would expect it to be.

Originally Posted by rubiksoval
I'd actually like to lose some muscle mass. I'm a bit bigger/wider than many of my racing peers, and it's always irked me.

As far as performance with high power outputs, it's not my ability to hit high power that's the issue. Never has been, and I suspect will not be for any forseeable time (maybe in 10-15 years when I get to my 50s?. My ability to hold high power, however, is definitely the issue.

And as I keep repeating ad nauseum, strength is not what holds me or anyone else back in that regard.

There was a great article about Amber Neben (?) and Tim Cusick describing how in her 40s she wasn't improving max power at any particular duration, but was improving how long she could hold any particular power. That sounds good to me!
Late 40s and on is precisely the age range I was referring to in my comment on this.
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Old 02-08-21, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by OBoile
I'm sure there are pros that never do any strength work. That's why I'm not 100% sold on it either. But it does seem to be the majority do at this point. Certainly most coaches that one hears about support the idea.

But I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be done during a training camp? I would expect it to be.

Late 40s and on is precisely the age range I was referring to in my comment on this.
I don't think it would be because of how much more substantial the training stimulus likely is and how much more they need to focus on recovery.

But holding power longer isn't a strength issue you'd improve upon in the gym.

If anything, it's why it's even more important to focus on the bike and work on extensive training (training to increase the duration of power) at various levels, notably sub and threshold.
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Old 02-08-21, 02:26 PM
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Moderation post cubewheels Please leave the thread and stop quoting rubiksoval in your posts. Thank you.
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Old 02-08-21, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
I don't think it would be because of how much more substantial the training stimulus likely is and how much more they need to focus on recovery.
I'm not suggesting that they're doing a bunch 5x5s or anything like that. What strength work would be done likely wouldn't be a significant drain on recovery. Enough that it wouldn't be done during a race, but not enough to seriously disrupt other training.
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
But holding power longer isn't a strength issue you'd improve upon in the gym.

If anything, it's why it's even more important to focus on the bike and work on extensive training (training to increase the duration of power) at various levels, notably sub and threshold.
Strength absolutely matters for being able to hold power for intervals that are less than a few minutes. My understanding is those kind of intervals are pretty common in bike races.
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