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Track and Power

Old 11-20-12, 10:00 AM
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brunospimenta
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Track and Power

Hi, everyone.

I'm new to track cycling and I want to start racing.

I was just playing around with https://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to make some guesses about the amount of watts needed for the best times on the track over here.

It seems that the record for the 200 m at Curitiba Velodrome in Brazil is 11" 279.

Kreuzotter says that I need 1400 watts, 64 km/h and 120 rpm to do that.

I know that it's just an aproximation but is that correct?

What are the different power ranges for racing?

Thanks in advance.
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Old 11-20-12, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by brunospimenta View Post
Hi, everyone.

I'm new to track cycling and I want to start racing.

I was just playing around with https://www.kreuzotter.de/english/espeed.htm to make some guesses about the amount of watts needed for the best times on the track over here.

It seems that the record for the 200 m at Curitiba Velodrome in Brazil is 11" 279.

Kreuzotter says that I need 1400 watts, 64 km/h and 120 rpm to do that.

I know that it's just an aproximation but is that correct?

What are the different power ranges for racing?

Thanks in advance.
The average speed is correct. But everything else is simply guessing.

The flying 200M is a very technical event. There is no way that you can put some numbers into a computer and get your flying 200M time. There are waaaay to many variables.

For example, try this. Get a stopwatch (or stopwatch app on your smartphone) and just start it. Notice how fast 1 second and tenths of a second pass by. It's really fast.

Different power ranges? It really depends on:
- Type of race
- Rider style
- Rider weight

A rider can produce a max 2,000W (which is awesome!)...but if he weighs 300lbs, he'll be a snail on the track.

A rider can produce a max of 1,400W but weigh 140lbs and dominate.

So, there are too many variables to consider.
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Old 11-20-12, 01:12 PM
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I think Baby Puke's quote in Carleton's sig is very appropriate here.

Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
You'll have to race it and see. You can't kilo with a sliderule.
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Old 11-20-12, 06:35 PM
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I think it would've been funny if Carleton had just thrown some random watt and weight numbers and it worked out that the 300lb guy had a higher watts/lb ratio. Why do you have to be so smart?
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Old 11-21-12, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
I think it would've been funny if Carleton had just thrown some random watt and weight numbers and it worked out that the 300lb guy had a higher watts/lb ratio. Why do you have to be so smart?
Hahaha, I pay waaaay too much attention to W/Kg.
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Old 11-21-12, 07:48 AM
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Ok, guys. Thanks a lot for your attention. I've been working with W/kg and power training on the road but I was really surprised about those high power numbers on the track.
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Old 11-21-12, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by brunospimenta View Post
Ok, guys. Thanks a lot for your attention. I've been working with W/kg and power training on the road but I was really surprised about those high power numbers on the track.
Yeah, they are really high.

Here is a typical world-class sprint podium:



The legs are similar for national level racers:


Think of the difference between track & field (athletics) sprinters versus the middle and long distance runners. The physiology is VERY different.

100M


800M


10K
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Old 11-21-12, 11:36 AM
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but how will i fit into my skinny jeans?!

on a serious note. clearly we see hypertrophy with the german riders but that doesn't really relate to strength right?

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

time to hit the gym.
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Old 11-21-12, 11:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
but how will i fit into my skinny jeans?!

on a serious note. clearly we see hypertrophy with the german riders but that doesn't really relate to strength right?

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

time to hit the gym.
Hahaha! That is a real problem for many sprinters.

That's a good article.

I was told by a guy that specializes in weight training and powerlifting that, even though we can get stronger, we don't add much mass after age 35.
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Old 11-21-12, 03:10 PM
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Another interesting thing about track racers. With the exception of Wiggo, every track racer, no matter their focus, when they started racing road they were a sprint specialist.
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Old 11-21-12, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
I was told by a guy that specializes in weight training and powerlifting that, even though we can get stronger, we don't add much mass after age 35.
I'm over 35 and have no trouble adding mass. Unfortunately it isn't muscle...
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Old 11-21-12, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Kayce View Post
Another interesting thing about track racers. With the exception of Wiggo, every track racer, no matter their focus, when they started racing road they were a sprint specialist.
Also, when local guys come off of the road they are endurance specialists.

It is said that a Road Sprinter is a Track Enduro.

Another example is Cavendish, who started his career on the track. Many of us know that he won 2 Championships in the Madison (with Wiggins and Rob Hayles) before becoming famous as a road sprinter:

Originally a track cyclist in the madison, points race, and scratch race, he has also competed on the road since 2006. Cavendish is a noted cycling sprinter, and as such is a prolific winner of individual stages in stage races. Cavendish has won a total 23 Tour de France stages putting him 4th on the all-time list and 9th on the all-time list of Grand Tour stage winners with 36 victories.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...Mark_Cavendish


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Old 11-21-12, 06:12 PM
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i always wondered what his track discipline was. still a pretty enduro guy just happens to have a bit of snap after a tour stage.
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Old 11-22-12, 04:38 AM
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I guess I'll have to spend more time at the gym. I'm gathering all the equipment and getting a coach. The previous posts were very helfpful, specially the ones containing carleton's explanations.
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Old 11-24-12, 02:33 PM
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Looks like bruno thinks that going to the gym will help him, the issue with track is that if you dont have the power you are dead in a race and if you arent fast (fast cadence) you are even more dead. No matter how much gym you do if the legs are slow then the guys are going to smoke you.

See you very surprised of the wattage the guys are putting but it makes sense, you have no gears, the track sure is not light because track arent built with the lightest non friction material around (cement) either , so if you have not go to a track yet dont get scared if your legs hurt after 15 minutes or because you try to go fast and darn wind everywhere

If you have access to a 100 meters sprinter pre season training program do that, why... that will get your legs moving fast and you will built enough to have your legs to perform w/o oxygen, thats why all the trackers around have massive legs. You are all the time in lack of oxygen since the 1st km, so the body has to built around that... no oxygen, then you have to go anaerobic then (muscle).

No idea how fast you are but IMO and talking like an old man that I'm, you are taking this way to scientifically because if at the end of all the training you want to do your legs arent fast then the power you get is useless (carleton mentioned this). The main problem road racers find going to the track is that they dont have the cadence neither the power they thought they had. Not the same going 53x14 in a flat at 80 rpm than going 50x15 at 100+ just in the bunch in the track.

Good luck
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Old 11-25-12, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ultraman6970 View Post
Looks like bruno thinks that going to the gym will help him, the issue with track is that if you dont have the power you are dead in a race and if you arent fast (fast cadence) you are even more dead. No matter how much gym you do if the legs are slow then the guys are going to smoke you.

See you very surprised of the wattage the guys are putting but it makes sense, you have no gears, the track sure is not light because track arent built with the lightest non friction material around (cement) either , so if you have not go to a track yet dont get scared if your legs hurt after 15 minutes or because you try to go fast and darn wind everywhere

If you have access to a 100 meters sprinter pre season training program do that, why... that will get your legs moving fast and you will built enough to have your legs to perform w/o oxygen, thats why all the trackers around have massive legs. You are all the time in lack of oxygen since the 1st km, so the body has to built around that... no oxygen, then you have to go anaerobic then (muscle).

No idea how fast you are but IMO and talking like an old man that I'm, you are taking this way to scientifically because if at the end of all the training you want to do your legs arent fast then the power you get is useless (carleton mentioned this). The main problem road racers find going to the track is that they dont have the cadence neither the power they thought they had. Not the same going 53x14 in a flat at 80 rpm than going 50x15 at 100+ just in the bunch in the track.

Good luck
I believe I got the point now. I went to my first track session with a coach and he wanted to record some times. I was in a 50x15 gear in my road bike and at some point I was spinning like crazy amd it was hard to keep the cadence. If I understood well the point is to be strong (power) and fast (high cadence). He told me that in the beginning we will work more on the technical aspects and he stressed the importance of proper technique regarding spinning at higher cadences. This is gonna be pretty fun

Here is our track in Curitiba:

https://maps.google.com.br/maps?q=ve...,14.75,,0,1.48
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Old 11-25-12, 11:13 AM
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All this is incredibly insightful. Thanks! I still have to admit I'd love a set of those legs and the power and speed to boot.

btw, burno I looked at the link of your track. Great idea about having the tennis courts in the infield. Gives the whole family something to do while motoring around the 'drome.
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Old 11-25-12, 02:53 PM
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Pantani,

It's a public velodrome and because of those courts we have to be a lot more careful with people crossing the track. Once I had to abort an FTP test because 2 dads with 5 little boys decided to play around with their bikes...anyway, the track is in a very special place called Jardim Botânico, which is a landmark of the city.
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Old 11-25-12, 06:04 PM
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The reason why cadence is important is because you only have one gear.

There are only 2 ways to get faster if you can only use one gear:

1) Pedal Harder
2) Pedal Faster

The problem with pedaling harder is that it uses too much energy. We can only do it for a short period of time. We can pedal faster for much much longer.

Plus, it's really hard to get a big gear up to speed.

Roadies scoff at the idea of a 50t/14t (similar to 53/15 on a road bike) ratio being a "big gear". But, they have never started a 53/15 from zero RPM and then revved up to 140-150RPM. Most road racers stay between 80-120 RPM and choose the ring/cog combination that keeps them in that sweet spot.
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Old 11-25-12, 06:12 PM
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Cadence is King on the track.

Think of it as a car with a manual transmission. Have you noticed that on the dashboard there is no power meter? But there is a tachometer...and it is very important for managing speed!

Pay close attention to you cadences because that's how you will manage your speed and gear selection.


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Old 11-26-12, 02:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
i always wondered what his track discipline was. still a pretty enduro guy just happens to have a bit of snap after a tour stage.
And everything around him probably looks like slow motion. At a world cup/worlds level madison they can be doing 40+ mph for the last 6 laps or so *and they're doing exchanges in traffic*.
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Old 11-28-12, 02:25 AM
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https://www.aboc.com.au/Members/carl/...-for-sprinters


Found this, seems like what you were looking for.
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Old 11-28-12, 05:32 AM
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The page is not loading over here.
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Old 01-22-13, 04:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Impreza_aL View Post
but how will i fit into my skinny jeans?!

on a serious note. clearly we see hypertrophy with the german riders but that doesn't really relate to strength right?

https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/hale6.htm

time to hit the gym.
There is a correlation between the cross-sectional size of a muscle and its strength. Larger muscles are pretty much always going to be stronger than similarly strength-trained smaller muscles. The scenario in that link is plausible for a bodybuilder preparing for a competition who has dehydrated and starved himself to get very low body fat. A well-fed strength-trained individual could very easily be stronger than a bodybuilder in that point in his training, despite appearing to be smaller (low bodyfat always makes one look bigger, though). However, there are obviously lots of factors that affect strength, so to even the playing field, let's suppose we took two muscles and strength trained them equally, so that they are able to generate the same amount of force, then made one muscle magically bigger. The bigger muscle would actually then be more effective at moving bone around a joint - effectively being stronger. This is because the muscle fibers have a much greater 'angle of attack' when they contract; the fibers now have many more angles to pull against the tendon, versus a smaller muscle which has a much smaller 'choice' of angles to pull on the tendon.
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