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Rippled frame tubes advice 😞( Zebra touring)

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Rippled frame tubes advice 😞( Zebra touring)

Old 04-16-19, 10:51 AM
  #1  
Chr0m0ly 
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Rippled frame tubes advice 😞( Zebra touring)



Ripple


Full 022


Ripple


Bulge under cluster


Paint crack on lug


The drop outs! \"I can't quit you!" LOL


Double front eyelets


Double water bottle basements, under/over downtube
last year I picked up a beautiful shiny Zebra(Kenko) "Tour de Force". Probably second tier tourer, maybe top, but it's a very cool bike.

Problem is when I got it home I found ripples on the top and down tubes behind the steerer, then yesterday I was re-evaluating it and found a bulge under the seat cluster?

Fork looks fine from a side view, it rides well, and if it were my only touring bike I might use it, but I have an embarrassment of nice tourers from the 80's and a need to down size, so it's got to go.

I'm stripping the frame for the components, to build up my fleet, but the frame, is it worth anything to anybody? It's full Ishiwata 022, including the fork, and it has these sweet vertical drop outs. I'm almost tempted to cut out the drop outs and have them for a future frame build...

Anyway pictures:




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Old 04-16-19, 12:13 PM
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I wonder if the seat tube bulges are from a too-short seatpost that had weight applied in multiple directions.

None of the bulges look imminently fatal, but I can understand demoting the bike.
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Old 04-16-19, 12:32 PM
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If the bike is rideable, I'd ride it for a few weeks to see if it is roadworthy before stripping it.

Then, go ahead and strip the parts you wanted it for.

You can probably sell the frame for $50 with full disclosure.

Or...

https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...ng-scraps.html

Kid wanted some "tubes" for welding practice for a HS project.

And, he's local to you too!!!!!!!!!

Just give him the frame to chop up, salvage lugs, etc.
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Old 04-16-19, 04:26 PM
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Before you give up on that frame, read through this.

I would never hand a frame like that to someone else, but I have enough confidence in steel that my Grander Sportier has been on my 2018 TdFFD and last month's Last Winter Tour of the Willamette Valley, along with several hundred miles of riding in between.
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Old 04-16-19, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by Chr0m0ly
It's full i****awa 022, including the fork,
It's "Ishiwata."

Like "ishy water"

Not "****ty water"
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Old 04-16-19, 07:43 PM
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I suspect a major impact sent the bike tumbling, with impact to the saddle tilting the rigid seatpost within the seat tube.

Now as for future usage, depends on the usual assortment of variables that add up to a definition of a frame's lifespan, mainly loading and # of cycles, but reduced of course because the tubes going into the head lugs are no longer round and straight.

So for moderate use with a relatively light rider, I would expect that it could still endure many years of riding before a fatigue crack starts to appear near one of the bulges.
These things are hella tough to begin with, and it's not like all of this frame's strength has been lost!
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Old 04-16-19, 10:34 PM
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Observation #1 : Lens distortion aside, the main triangle appears to be at the correct angles.
Observation #2 : I'm used to seeing the paint wrinkling on the top rear edge of the upper headtube lug from cold-setting after a front-end crash, not from the crash itself.
Observation #1 : The wide focal length of most simple cameras distort pictures with a bulge in the center - but it looks like there's a downwards curve to the top tube; the opposite of what I'd expect to see from optical distortion. I suspect this may be the case in actuality, and not anything optical.

Hypothesis: I believe this frame was in a front-ender early in life, and was cold-set back into factory alignment with a (gasp) Park HTS-1 or similar tool. Depending on the tubing, the HTS-1 does have the ability to get a headtube back in alignment, but a light wrinkle often remains. The top tube tends to bow during the cold setting as well, resulting in the downwards bow I'm seeing here.

Put a straightedge on the top and bottom of the top tube. If it rocks on the bottom and has a gap at the top, it's almost certain that this frame was cold-set back into alignment after an old crash.

As for the bulge on the seatpost, I'd almost want to say damage from a stuck post, but this looks like the original here. It's probably as others have said here - a bulge caused by a side impact to the seattube.

At any rate, if the headtube is at the proper angle, I wouldn't part this one out. Definitely wouldn't cut it up - there are many other bad wrecks out there for it!

If you do part it out, throw the frame up on the Sales forum (or - hey - Pay It Forward, if you feel so inclined) with the ripples and this thread noted. Pretty sure you'll find someone here willing to live with the frame's history so long as the head angle is right. There are also a few nuts "adventerous frame straighteners" here (myself included) who'd probably be willing to straighten anything that's still bent (case in point, the headtube and seattube may not be on the same vertical plane).

At any rate, it presents nicely. Provided that the frame has been cold set back to where it belongs, it should ride as intended, or close to it. Ishiwata 022 isn't heat treated tubing - the chances of it cracking in future are unlikely. And if it does, I wouldn't expect it to be catastrophic. Plus, if it does break, it'll be so far off in the future (even if some monster cranks on it all day for the next 5 years), it won't owe anyone anything by then.

-Kurt
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Old 04-17-19, 04:48 AM
  #8  
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Checking Out A Frame

One of the first things that I do when I'm looking at a bike or frame to buy is to feel under the top and down tubes to see if there are any ripples that would indicate that it's been in a front ender. I also check the alignment on all of the bikes and frames that I get.

I did a local pick up on a Moto Team Champion frame that I got on eBay. As I walked up to the seller holding out the frame, I could see that the forks were wrong. I felt under the tubes and felt ripples. The frame had been straightened as well as the fork replaced.

I took it to a frame builder friend's shop with the understanding that if it was too messed up I would return it for a refund. The alignment was correct but the fork was way off length wise. I negotiated a major refund with the seller but the frame sat for several years before I built it up and that took over a year. It was damaged goods.

I replaced the fork with a correct one but the bike handles squirrely so it's going on the block! Maybe it's just knowing that a pristine looking frame has a "history" and I'm too fussy about those things.

Saving the dropouts isn't worth the time or trouble. They're stamped steel not forged. You can buy good ones from a frame builder supplier for not a whole bunch of money.

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Old 04-17-19, 05:36 AM
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Originally Posted by verktyg
I took it to a frame builder friend's shop with the understanding that if it was too messed up I would return it for a refund. The alignment was correct but the fork was way off length wise. I negotiated a major refund with the seller but the frame sat for several years before I built it up and that took over a year. It was damaged goods.

I replaced the fork with a correct one but the bike handles squirrely so it's going on the block! Maybe it's just knowing that a pristine looking frame has a "history" and I'm too fussy about those things.
"Fork was way off lengthwise" - were these the original forks, bent, or was it a replacement?

Either way, it sounds as if the headtube might be shifted (vertically) from the seattube, which would definitely feel unridable, even if by a degree or so. If so, that's still fixable. Did your friend check it on one of those tables that measures the plane the tubes are on?

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Old 04-17-19, 06:25 AM
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1) Ride it for a while.
2) Or ride it for years until the frame cracks.
3) Sell it now or later to someone for $20-$40 who wants a damaged frame to rebuild.
4) And don't show any more nds pics.
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Old 04-17-19, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by SurferRosa
1) Ride it for a while.
2) Or ride it for years until the frame cracks.
3) Sell it now or later to someone for $20-$40 who wants a damaged frame to rebuild.
4) And don't show any more nds pics.
Or the tl:dr version:

1) No more non-drive side pics.

-Kurt
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Old 04-17-19, 05:06 PM
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My 2cents = Ride it (assuming it tracks straight & turns predictably), watch the very slight bulges (easy to see given intact paint), enjoy your lifetime with it.


comments above assume paint is original. for repaints, confidence level goes down dramatically.
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Old 04-17-19, 05:20 PM
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Rain bike now.
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Old 04-18-19, 06:40 PM
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I have a Zebrakenko that I purchased in 1977. The lugwork is sloppy compared to other bikes, and has other imperfections. However it rides nicely and the frame is straight, and over the years has stood up to all sorts of riding, including loaded touring. It is possible that the imperfections on the OP's bike are cosmetic. The bulge under the seat cluster may have been caused by overheating, but shouldn't affect the strength of the frame.


Can you ride it no handed? If not the frame might be damaged, if you can, it might be okay.
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Old 04-18-19, 06:58 PM
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@Chr0m0ly,

What was your original intent with the bike? Did you buy it to ride, or did you buy it as a parts donor?

If you were planning to ride the bike, then go ahead and tune it up and ride it.

If you were planning on using it as a parts donor, then go ahead and strip it, then send the frame off to that HS kid to use for spare parts and brazing practice.
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Old 04-18-19, 08:53 PM
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If you are going to pass it along, kindly pass along the DT shifters with it and if the Canti brakes are proprietary them also.

Would make for a nice tourer.
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Old 04-19-19, 08:23 AM
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Use of wood frame blocks can flatten those areas, imo, and probably won't mess the paint unless there is an existing issues. I made some blocks with my drill press. They worked out real good, need a real big mofo clamp or bench vise to use.

I rolled out dents in Columbus framed Bianchi. Worked out great! The guy that bought the frame was amazed with the results. the dings did a hit on the market value, but now value was there.
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Old 04-19-19, 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
@Chr0m0ly,

What was your original intent with the bike? Did you buy it to ride, or did you buy it as a parts donor?

If you were planning to ride the bike, then go ahead and tune it up and ride it.

If you were planning on using it as a parts donor, then go ahead and strip it, then send the frame off to that HS kid to use for spare parts and brazing practice.

I’d purchased it as a counterpoint to my ‘91 Miyata 1000LT and my ‘90 Cannondale ST600. Both are stiffer touring bikes and I’d wanted to try out an earlier steel tourer with more bump-soak-up-ability.
But since then, I’ve picked up, first an ‘84 Trek 520 then an ‘84 620 followed by the Grande Dame an ‘83 720.
So this was bought as a rider, and it could be used as such, but I have plenty of bikes that serve the role in a better capacity.
I’m on a trip with my wife right now, and she’s on an ‘88 Canny ST400 I’ve built up for her, and I’m using the Trek 620. Never even considered bringing the Zebra.
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