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Groupset tiers a scam?

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Groupset tiers a scam?

Old 09-16-19, 12:01 PM
  #51  
Rides4Beer
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Originally Posted by wle View Post
I also doubt the 'trickle down'. Ultegra has never looked like D-A, no matter how long you wait.


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Old 09-16-19, 12:21 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Dean V View Post
I guess calling in a "marketing strategy" would be a more diplomatic thing to call it.
But I just can't see the difference in value or cost of production between say a 105 and Dura Ace groupset.
Sure when you start using Ti (cassettes) or carbon it will cost more to produce, but overall with modern machinery and production methods I can't really see much of a difference.
GCN did a YouTube (
) where they interviewed a Shimano rep about the differences between Dura-Ace and Ultegra. The rep indicated, from a performance standpoint, they are essentially the same. The main differences were weight (materials) and finish. I assume there are significant technology differences between 105 (which I have and am perfectly happy with) and Ultegra/Dura-Ace.
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Old 09-16-19, 12:36 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by djs42 View Post
Exactly. The Toyota is cheaper, more reliable, and has higher resale value.
That's what I mean. Some will be satisfied with the lower tier while others want the upper end stuff. Good thing about capitalism.

A lot of the folks (not all) who get the lower tier stuff think the upper tier folks are stupid. Kind of helps justify their decision.
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Old 09-16-19, 03:55 PM
  #54  
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Parts is parts

I have never taken apart higher end groupsets to compare to a lower end groupset but as an inspector of everything from aircraft to medical devices, nuts, bolts, and things from plastic injection miles, castings, machined parts, familiar with welding, plating, materials etc. There could be so many differences not really visible to the eye that could make a groupset much more expensive. A grade 5 bolt looks very much like a grade 8 bolt for example but for certain installations grade 8 bolts are specified.
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Old 09-16-19, 04:11 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post


Well.. it's obvious to me, DuraAce comes with its own built-in Clarity photoshop filter with resulting highlights and 'edge'.
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Old 09-16-19, 04:16 PM
  #56  
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I notice a definite difference between Shimano 105 and Ultegra; besides the components being lighter, Ultegra stays in adjustment longer and more reliably than 105, and has a more sophisticated "feel". Not sure how Dura-Ace compares, aside from the overall weight difference.
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Old 09-16-19, 04:29 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by wle View Post
I also doubt the 'trickle down'. Ultegra has never looked like D-A, no matter how long you wait.
1- its laughable that you dont see aesthetic similarities.

2- even if there weren't aesthetic similarities, trickle down can still exist since components are designed internally as well as externally.
The tech in DA can trickle down, even if the cosmetic doesnt.



But go ahead and doubt.
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Old 09-16-19, 04:54 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
Porsche v. Toyota
Not even close.
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Old 09-16-19, 05:51 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
1- its laughable that you dont see aesthetic similarities.
Aesthetically they are similar



Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
2- even if there weren't aesthetic similarities, trickle down can still exist since components are designed internally as well as externally.
The tech in DA can trickle down, even if the cosmetic doesnt.



But go ahead and doubt.
If you believe that DA and Ultegra are the same, keep buying Ultegra.

You'll never know the difference, as long as you don't mind waiting for the tech to trickle down.

Last edited by noodle soup; 09-16-19 at 05:58 PM.
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Old 09-16-19, 06:47 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by cs1 View Post
Not even close.
I'd say cost wise the comparison is pretty close. 3-5x in price.

Some see the value in the dura ace, while others do not. Same said about the Porsche.
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Old 09-16-19, 10:00 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Aesthetically they are similar



If you believe that DA and Ultegra are the same, keep buying Ultegra.

You'll never know the difference, as long as you don't mind waiting for the tech to trickle down.
I dont understand your responses to my post.

I didnt say I believe they are the same. I simply said there is trickle down, which there is. Lower groups receive changes that higher groups already have.
Internal shift cables being an obvious example. High/low limit adjustment being another. Both have moved from high to low(er).


Maybe I missed something or misread something in this thread?
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Old 09-17-19, 12:24 AM
  #62  
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Old 09-17-19, 03:40 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
Well.. it's obvious to me, DuraAce comes with its own built-in Clarity photoshop filter with resulting highlights and 'edge'.
Whatever tricks employed in post, the pic only begins to illustrate how much flasher the finish is on the DA crankset.
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Old 09-17-19, 04:05 AM
  #64  
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As a former salesman, I don't see a marketing scam.

First, you have to create a need and no one needs Dura Ace.

Second, you have to give folks a reason to upgrade and no one needs Dura Ace.

So after you create a need and give folks a reason to upgrade you price it so that's it's reasonably close to Ultegra and not out of reach to mere mortals.

Dura Ace is out of reach to mere mortals.

Okay I jest but only a little. Look at the MTB line, SLX, XT, XTR. SLX and XT (I think the sweet spot) are fine and will do the job. XTR is just out there, like Pluto man.
Is it a marketing ploy? No, because if you look at specs you can see how different XTR is over SLX.
XTR is also out of reach to mere mortals.

Again, if this were some kind of scam, you'd price this stuff to sell, not sit in some glass case for the peons to gawk at.
When I did my gravel I ran Shimano for a month or so. XTR cranks just did not compute (even though I opted for Praxis carbon which I think was bit less expensive). You price stuff to lure folks into upgrading, you don't price stuff to scare folks away.

Anyways, this is most likely moot as I bet Shimano makes the most cash on groups sold with brand new bicycles; Tiagra, Alfine, Sora, etc. Think of how many groups are sold that way as opposed to individual grouppos. Think about how cheaply you can make that stuff with all the stamped components.
Actually, this may be where the action is!
Spec out the low end groups so they don't match the upper groups. Why does Shimano still sell 8-9 speed groups? That's right! so you have to upgrade. Creating a need.
How much more is 105?
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Old 09-17-19, 09:02 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup View Post
Aesthetically they are similar



If you believe that DA and Ultegra are the same, keep buying Ultegra.

You'll never know the difference, as long as you don't mind waiting for the tech to trickle down.
Referencing the GCN interview posted above, Shimano straight up stated that there is no performance difference between Ultegra and DA beyond the weight and materials used. The shifting performance between the two are virtually identical, per Shimano. Not sure it gets more reliable than information coming straight from a company representative.
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Old 09-17-19, 10:42 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by Psychocycles View Post
Referencing the GCN interview posted above, Shimano straight up stated that there is no performance difference between Ultegra and DA beyond the weight and materials used. The shifting performance between the two are virtually identical, per Shimano. Not sure it gets more reliable than information coming straight from a company representative.
In this case, weight is the performance difference
Certainly not necessary, but as a famous poet once remarked..

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Old 09-17-19, 10:57 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
In this case, weight is the performance difference
Certainly not necessary, but as a famous poet once remarked..

It'll blow your mind that the R8000 is heavier than the 6800 groupo. Lol.

If anyone wants to conspiracy theorize......look at electronic groupsets. No reason they couldn't have an Ultegra level that's only $150 or so more than the mechanical set. Mass produced Asian electronics and parts on that scale.........not going to be much difference. But the cost difference.......pshhh.
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Old 09-17-19, 12:43 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by RedBullFiXX View Post
In this case, weight is the performance difference
Certainly not necessary, but as a famous poet once remarked..

This^.

I don't care what someone thinks they feel in terms of difference in performance of the components but there are some. Then again there are people that think all cars are the same because they all accelerate when you step on the throttle and take you somewhere.

Component levels and groups will continue to have a price ledge to fall off. As noted this always goes to help pay for the development. The trickledown is real. Some will always pay for the top. The gap between the top and second tier has grown and will only get larger. Ride what you want. Don't want it then don't get it. Fear of missing out? Then buy it and justify it to yourself all day long after the fact. Who cares.
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