Bassmanbob

I've enjoyed doing century events and one double century event that was supported. But now I'm considering doing self-supported extended endurance events like Randonneuring rides. Unfortunately, there is only much electrolyte powder I can carry on a ride that will last 12- 48+ hours. So what do you pack? What do you purchase and eat/drink? Which commercially available convenient store drinks and foods do you consume and why? And lastly, how many Subway sandwiches do you consume? That last one was a bit tongue-in-cheek. I've heard jokes about Randonneurs getting sick of Subway by the end of long brevets.

I've thought of dried fruit like figs, dates, fig bars, dried apple slices, so they are not so heavy. Then down them with extra water. But recently someone told me about an extended endurance event they did where many of the lead riders were eating whole fresh fruit like apples, pears and bananas.

Turnin_Wrenches

It's been three years since I made the leap from double centuries to unsupported ultra-distance races at the shorter end of the ultra spectrum (500+ miles). The nutrition piece has been the hardest part to figure out, and I'm just now reaching the point where I know how to fuel for 30-40 hours on the bike with minimal breaks. For me, convenience stores and public parks have become my preferred "fueling stations". Carrying my own nutrition and drink mix did not pay dividends. The add'l weight was significant. I also learned that for anything over 200 miles I need real food and lots of salty snacks.

My typical convenience store fare for salt and calorie replenishment is a small bag of Doritos (sometimes two bags) and 1-2 bottles of orange Gatorade. If I need something that's both sweet and salty I grab a regular size 2-pack of Reece's peanut butter cups. In between convenience stores I'll eat gels (GU Roctane in various flavors), which my stomach will tolerate over long distances, and I'll stop at public parks for water and restroom breaks.

Ultimately, you need to figure out what fuel sources will provide consistent energy at your target pace while maintaining stomach comfort. There's no magic recipe.

Bassmanbob

Thank you for your reply. What you stated was what I was thinking. I know it's different for everyone and for how long, long is. I want the replies not as a specific answer, but to point me in the general direction of what to look for and try. I've also found that when I'm on the bike for more than 4 hours, I often need a nice really cold drink. I feel like I need to be refreshed after drinking tap water fountains with or without my electrolyte powders for so long.

Turnin_Wrenches

Cool, glad the info helped. I think it's also good that you're looking for ideas based on the experience of others and largely wanting to figure out for yourself what's best for you. Ultimately, that will get you to a much better place than just following a "recommended protocol" and expecting it to work.

Tourist in MSN

I am sure you will have a different plan than almost everyone else, the brevets I ride are in Southern Wisc. and Northern Illinois. An extraordinarily hot and humid day to me would probably be the kind of day you turn the heater on in your car.

I carry some pretzel rods along on long rides in case I feel a lack of electrolytes. That is my effort to make sure I have enough electrolytes. I like to have a banana shortly before the start of the ride too. Other than that I am eating donuts, apple fritters, chocolate shakes, candy bars and maybe french fries if I have an urge for salt. I usually bring a bunch of granola bars, but bring most of them home uneaten.

Avoid too much fats, your body uses energy to process fats, that slows you down. French fries, roughly a third to half of the calories is from fats, I do not want any more fats in anything I eat than that.

I have had protein deficiency on long bike tours. My Dr diagnosed that, now I try to have a 20 gram protein bar at the end of a long ride to head that off.

This link has some good info on the types of fuels you need at different energy levels. In other words, are you racing or are you at the tail end of the pack back where I am?
https://www.roadbikerider.com/energy...e-intensities/

This is why I focus on just salt for electrolytes, but maybe if you sweat a lot in Florida, my experience has nothing to do with the world you live in.
https://www.roadbikerider.com/what-e...eally-need-d3/

I also take a magnesium supplement every day, but a physiologist suggested that for me due to my diabetes and the meds I take. That has nothing to do with my activities.

ROT_01

I ride in north Florida where it's hot and humid most of the year. Flavor fatigue is a real concern so I use electrolyte capsules (Hammer Nutrition and another brand called Salt Lick both work great). In the hotter season I take 1 every 1-2 hours. In the cool season I might take 1 every 3 hours on a brevet.
For nutrition I've been using Hammer's Perpetuum powder which is available in bulk and is naturally derived.
On most long rides I have a bottle of plain water, and a 1-2 bottles of Perpetuum, electrolyte tablets, and a combination of real whole foods, gas station/dollar general store junk, and always a few gels or blocks for emergency use. Also if the ride has lots of climbing (obviously not in FL) or bumpy gravel sectors I like to bring more gels cause they are quick and easy to use and digest in rougher conditions.
Real food for me includes: dried dates and figs, bananas, peanut butter and jelly or banana sandwich (my neighbor brings PB and banana dogs, yep PB and banana on a hot dog bun, or wrap it in a tortilla). I like PB and guava paste sandwiches cause the guava paste is thick and doesn't squish out all over everything like jelly. In north FL we can only carry chocolate on winter rides, and even then only if the hi is 70F, otherwise it melts. I also like to roast smaller sweet potatoes whole with the skin on and bring those sometimes. It's tasty and easy to eat and basically an energy gel that grows under ground. I make biscuits often and have been known to take honey biscuits on rides. Homeade waffle sandwiches are nice and portable too. If you don't already like to cook this might all sound ridiculous but if you like cooking just figure out things you like and can be portable. Another local rando makes focaccia or deep dish pizza the night before and brings slices of that. I can't stand Subway and am pretty sure I only ever ate 1 subway sandwich in all my 1,000's of kms ridden. However, the Hunt Brothers gas station pizza is highly recommended. If there are Cuban diners or cafes in your area (some central FL and south FL brevets) check them out for pastries, coffee, arepas and pressed sandwiches (scrambled egg and cheese is my fav), tropical fruit smoothies (called batidos with milk or licuados without milk usually).
Gas station/dollar store junk I go for: poptarts, gummy bears, plain fritos, fig bars, biscuit if you're in north Florida or GA, coffee in a can, coke/dr. pepper, V8.
I pretty much only drink gatorade on the really long hot rides when I want something cold and the sugar and extra electrolytes can be refreshing. I know a rider who on multiple occasions I've seen carrying a half pint bottle of maple syrup in his jersey pocket like a flask. And now there are one or two brands (one by VT gravel cyclist Ted King) that are marketing maple syrup in individual serving packets as a natural energy gel.

A mix of complex and simple carbohydrates is important and bits of protein (nuts, yogurt, jerky) on the really long rides. For the most part I lay off lots of fried stuff, meat and dairy in the heat, but then again I'm used to eating that way. I'm not vegetarian, but I was for many years. I'll eat a burger after a ride for the protein, but in the heat lots of dairy and meat doesn't work for me during a ride. Have fun figuring it out and know that some of it is just a matter of pushing your body and conditioning your mind and gut to the longer distances and you'll figure it out. Also bring Tums (antacid tablets) just in case you overeat or get heartburn, and remember, sometimes you might just need an antacid or to hit the bathroom and you'll feel 1,000% better afterwards.

Happy eating, err I mean, riding.

ROT_01

Same, post ride make sure and get that protein for recovery. The more proactive I am about recovery (especially electrolytes and protein in that 30 minute window after a ride), the better I feel off the bike and on the next ride. Recovery isn't just for the pros! We working stiffs can benefit immensely from some pretty simple post-ride protocols.

znomit

I can usually always eat a meat pie, cheeseburger, ham sandwich, or subway. Carrot cake goes well with coffee.
I typically carry a variety of muesli/power bars/small bags of nuts.
I did a particularly tough 300 in January and the heat and hills really killed my appetite. At the turnaround (only service) I managed to down a simple cheese and onion sandwich, but picked up a big bottle of coke and bag of soft lollie. I finished strongly at 2am fuelled by those simple sugars and caffeine.

I always carry gatorade powder too.

Tourist in MSN

I forgot to mention coffee in my previous post, which I was reminded of by some previous posts, above. I drink a lot of coffee every day, but mix it 40 percent decaf and 60 percent dark roast for daily use. The darker roast has less caffeine than normal. And I do not make it very strong. So, on a long bike ride, I want as much caffeine as I get on a non-biking day, maybe a bit more. I will bring two half liter insulated bottles of iced coffee on a long ride, when that is gone I am on water.

If you try to have some caffeine during a ride, don't over do it. But some athletes include that as part of their plan. I think you would want to have at least as much as you have on a non-biking day.

Gels were mentioned above. Because of my diabetes, I can't have those, but for those that can handle the high glycemic load, if you are running out of steam you may need a few.

For endurance, you will at times be running on a carb deficiency, you need to train your body to be able to run on your existing fats, we all carry a lot of that around every day. Try doing some longer rides where you have no carbs for the first couple hours, that puts you into the mode of mostly burning your body fats. And then minimize your carb intake for several more hours. If you do that once or twice a week, that can train your internal organs to operate that way.

You are slower on fats than carbs for energy, but you sounded like you want to train for longer rides, not necessarily make it a race.

This year I am late in getting out on my bike for longer rides, the photo below is a few years old, most but not all of the winter snow had melted by then and I was out trying to do a multi-hour exercise ride.



Yeah, I know you are not supposed to have a kickstand on a rando bike, but it is convenient.

Bassmanbob

Wow! Lots of info packed in there. And I've found some of those things you've mentioned have worked well for me on the century rides and the one double century I've done. I use my Infinit Go Far personal blend that has the maximum sodium (for our Florida heat and humidity) and a little less carbs than the original (the original gave me belly bloat at the end of the 5 Hour Challenge). But I've also eaten a baked sweet potatoe sliced in half with mustard (great for cramps), fig bars, oatmeal bars (Natures Valley I think). My wife and I do some hiking on vacations, and I like peanut butter and blueberry wraps. They're juicy, yet tend not to break until I chew them. We also do granola, dried fruit and jerky on hikes. But on a long endurance ride, I have not tried the PB and blueberry wraps, figs, dates or granola yet. Then again, I really want to know what folks get at the convenience stores and possibly chain fast food restaurants. And yes, you did mention the things you get in convenience stores. Thanks. I think those are the things I've been avoiding in the past. I'm afraid to buy and eat junk, yet I realize on those long rides, I'll need those high carbohydrate, low fat snacks to fuel me. I put your line about simple and complex carbs with some protein. Thanks. That reinforces some of the basic principles I was thinking.

I have learned that cheese is bad for me on rides. As my mother aged, she developed lactose intolerance, and I think it may be developing in me. I ate pizza on a century SAG stop and felt like I had led belly for about 30- 40 minutes. Never again. I'm beginning to eliminate it from my everyday diet too-- that's hard for a guy with an Italian decent.
Thanks for your post again. I'm sure I'll go back and read it again a couple of times.

Bassmanbob

Thank you. Caffeine... yeah. I drink a mandatory coffee before any ride, as I would on non-ride days, otherwise I'll be a road rager. My original electrolyte powder had caffeine in it but I had to remove it. Too much, and my heart rate starts to skyrocket.

I'll ask my coach (also with much nutrition knowledge) about the low carb training. It seems to be the opposite of what she has had me do, but we've only worked on rides up to 200 miles so far. I've been told that nutrition plans change when the rides are 24+ hours long.

Bassmanbob

How much protein after a tough ride? I usually do a Muscle Milk after a weekday 60-90 minute training ride. For my Saturday endurance training rides (40- 85 miles ending around 10- 10:30 AM) I'll immediately drink a smoothie with a frozen banana, 2 cups coconut milk, 2 servings (scoops) protein powder. Then within an hour, I usually have a first lunch with a turkey breast wrap or PB & J sandwich and an apple. Then I have a second (lite) lunch half a chicken fillet with a fair amount of cooked veggies around 2 PM with lots of water.

IMPORTANT EDIT: Recently, I've been consuming some more calories on the Saturday endurance training rides. It's been an added oatmeal bar and maybe a banana besides my Go Far drink. I've noticed that I will often only eat one lunch instead of two lunches just by adding those one or two items.

NJgreyhead

I see in Bicycle Quarterly that Jan Heine is a believer in carrying and drinking Ensure Plus for his multi-day Fastest Known Time attempts in the wilds.

Tourist in MSN

Depends on your goals. Your initial post was talking about trying to do some randonneuring rides, timed events without a podium. But now you say you have a coach advising you?

Are you racing, or are you doing long distance, or both.

That piece I provided the link for on energy levels and energy sources, such as fats or carbs, if you are racing you need a near constant carb input. But if your goal is lower energy output for making the time cutoff on brevets, you can rely more on your body fats.

I am not sure what your goals are.

The elite racers will try to figure out the carb mix that their body can digest faster to give them a few more watts. Are you one of those?

Bassmanbob

I have no interest in racing, only long distance brevet type rides for the future. And, yes... I have a coach who has helped me get stronger, more endurance and faster on the bike so that I'm no longer the last 5% to finish a century ride. After years of riding, I'd end up riding with the new cyclists locally, and I improved minimally. With my coach, I am making improvements. I'd like to be a solid rider, and be able to do a century ride in under 6 hours (moving). When I did the one double century, the ride organizers didn't realize there were still a few of us finishing up the ride until we got there. I don't want to be in that situation any longer. Besides, I work with the coach to allow me to also feel more confident riding these endurance rides and not being timed out/ swept off the course.

Tourist in MSN

I am 70 years young, rode my first brevet at age 65, I am content to be the last one in as long as I make the time cutoff.

I am currently going through the annual ritual of re-training my body for longer rides, rides that are longer than the 65 minutes I do on an exercise bike at the gym during winter. Yesterday rode 43 miles, most of that on a rail trail, used my heavy touring bike that weighs about 40 pounds but has 57mm wide tires which are better for the soft spots on that trail. Drank a half liter of iced coffee that was sweetened with stevia and no other foods. Trying to train my body for endurance, the opposite of being reliant on a constant input of carbs. Forecast was wrong, last 5 or 6 miles was in rain with no rain gear.

Photo below is after I finished a 200k last summer in 12:36, almost an hour to spare. That cold day, started out with long pants, two jackets, rain cover over the helmet to keep the cold wind off my head.



This is not in Florida, plenty of steep uphills.

ADDENDUM:

And as soon as I got home yesterday, had a protein bar (20 grams) to aid muscle recovery.

Carbonfiberboy 

I haven't randoed since my mid-60s. It's fun, but I moved on. Main thing is to be in really good shape. I recommend all-out 4-5 hour hilly rides, TTing the course, once a week. "If you can still walk at the end, you could have gone harder." A few months of that will get one in good enough shape. In my mid-60s I rode a hilly 200 in under 8 hours, a hilly 400 in 18.5, and a flat-ish 400 in under 15. That said, I was a slow climber. If I were riding with a group, they'd have to wait for me at the top of every climb because I'd lead the descent and keep contributing. You learn to find a pace you can hold all day. For me, that was always a carb-fueled pace. I rode by HR, watched it like a hawk. I'd establish a max HR for each distance, a HR that I would never exceed during the ride. That HR was the max HR I could sustain by the end of the previous ride in my SR series. So yeah, I raced them all, but that doesn't mean I was fast, just as fast as I could be. I usually finished in the top 10%.

I kept my bike pretty light, just the large Ortleib saddle bag and a small bar-top bag. I put as many Zip-loks full of my maltodextrin-whey mix as I could in that saddle bag, so I always had one bottle of that mix, even on a 400, just rationed it. My fave was probably Hostess Fruit Pies. I could eat one of those in 5 minutes. Also ordinary sandwiches, Clif Bars, other sports bars. One one ride, I ate a big muffin, paper cup and all. I never ate a real meal. I took Endurolyte caps, regular strength, 1-2/hour depending on temperature and 200mg caffeine tabs, 1 every 3 hours - no time for coffee. Lots of randos drink chocolate milk. I tried it, but my stomach didn't like it. Coming into a control, I'd figure out exactly what I'd do when I got there in order of necessity, then get off my bike and execute. Main thing is to spend as little time off the bike as possible. I wore shorts, not bibs, faster in the restroom in shorts. One of my buddies was fond of saying, "There is no slower speed than stopped," meaning just stay on the bike, don't worry about how fast you're going.

I didn't eat anything special after the ride. I stayed well-fueled. The club would usually provide pizza and Cokes. The final test was can you drive home!

Tourist in MSN

I have always been a low wattage rider. Finally learned why about eight years ago, my Dr office ran a bunch of extra tests on me. Had some of the same tests run again two months ago. Normal red cell count is between 4.4 and 5.8. Mine is 3.5, has always been way below normal. Hemoglobin also way below below normal range. The bottom line is that every blood test that is related to oxygen carrying capacity, I am way below normal. Eight years ago there were a bunch of other tests like EPO etc., same thing. So, I will always be the last one up the hill. Some of us are born that way.

Carbonfiberboy 

When I started doing those all out 4-5 hour group rides, I was also the last one up the hill. When I finally got a power meter in 2019, my FTP was 163. You could try wearing a pulse oximeter when riding indoors. If you can get your oxygen saturation down to 93 or below, that will stimulate your kidneys to release EPO. I think 15' anaerobic intervals, i.e. full gas hill climbs, panting your lungs out, will do the same thing. Of course your iron level are normal? I tried to get my cruising speed up: light stiff carbon bike, wide gear ratio spread, carry as little as possible for the intended ride, racing position and clip-on aero bars. Also Camelbak for water, more aero and no lost speed using a water bottle. I've also been working out in a gym since '79, which I think was a big help. More endurance since faster was not an option. Every trick in the book.

pdlamb

Back to the "what to eat?" subject...

I don't think anyone has mentioned potatoes. Baked if available, french fries if necessary. Potatoes are one of the best salt delivery systems ever invented, erm, discovered. After water and calories, salt deficits hit me hard on long rides. A big baked potato with as much salt as my palate can stand, pepper to taste, and whatever else you want -- with enough water to wash everything down.

Don't try this during a race, but it's great on a brevet or during a long tour.

Tourist in MSN

Thanks, but I am not going to try to become a racer. I did my first brevet at the approximate age you quit randonneuring. If I can finish within the time cutoff, I am quite content.

Iron levels are below normal, but my doctor did not suggest that I take more than the one iron pill a day I am already taking.

ROT_01

Sounds like more than enough recovery protein. For aerobic recovery a 3:1 ratio of carbs to protein is recommended within 30 minutes of finishing. Then have a meal within 1-2 hours. I got this ratio and time frames from Hammer Nutrition. There are lots of protocols out there but theirs has worked for me. During endurance efforts they recommend 7 or 8 : 1 carb to protein ratio for sustained aerobic efforts. Since I've paid more attention to these ratios, whether using a branded product or not, I do/feel better and even have shed a couple spare tires worth of weight unintentionally.

Bassmanbob

Yes. Sweet potatoes were mentioned, not regular potatoes. But I just did some reading on white potato nutrition compared to sweet potato nutrition. Surprisingly, they're not that different. The sweet potato has a lower glycemic index (GI), but it also depends how it is prepared. The GI dictates how quickly the glucose is released. Too high and it will spike glucose levels followed by a bottoming out of glucose in the blood. A lower GI allows for a slower release of the glucose. This is what you want in a slower endurance ride. The GI of a sweet potato goes way up (almost double) baked compared to boiled. The white potato GI does not increase that much bake compared to boiled. Generally, I microwave them, so I would think that is closer to baking than boiling. So the GI of the sweet vs white potato is not that different when baked. And white potatoes have more potassium, which is important to a guy sweating all day too. I may try a white potato the next time I go out on a really long training ride. As stated before, I like to put mustard on my baked potato (white or sweet), so that helps with cramps too.

Tourist in MSN

I mentioned french fries twice in post number 5, once in reference to the high fat content as it is near the max for the amount of fat I want to ingest on a long ride, the other reference was for being a source of salt.

French fries are quick to buy on the road at fast food places, provided there are any on your route.

Richard Cranium

Often cyclists want answers to questions that can't be answered by other cyclists. When the subject is something as intimate as appetite and sustenance during a ride - answers can get a bit confusing - if not completely contradictory. Typically the "original post" or question isn't specific enough to be answered as accurately as possible.

Like many of you that have already posted, I have years of endurance cycling experience. And this is why I know I can't answer the original questions directly.

However, there are some important principles having to with nutrition and exercise physiology that will go along way in keeping you successfully nourished on a long ride.
The first principle is that a normal balanced diet will work perfectly well for most cyclists - if their goal is to simply ride and finish a given distance successfully.
Secondly, understanding that as a cyclist attempts to improve his/her exercise performance, the "balance" in a diet will need to shift toward foods known to digest easily and deliver energy.
And finally, environmental effects will always dictate how the interplay of liquid nutrients are used - both in quantity and interval. And understand this one point the most - when attempting "first time" ultra long ride or "higher levels" of exercise performance - realize that nutrition strategies that worked during the start of a ride may not work after an athlete is severely stressed and fatigued during the end of a ride..

I hope some of this helps. But most likely you'll learn these things through experience - everyone else did. .....