Bike trends have officially entered the ugly era
07-11-18, 06:37 PM
#101
Senior Member
No one is going to attempt a solo 100k time trial. Unless pro or English. Years ago we used to promote 100k 4-man team time trials. We could get 30 or so teams to show up. Now it would be zero. For 50k TTT the turnout is real small. Attempted a few times to organize 50-mile individual TTs. The organizing committee turned against it before it got off the ground. They were right, no one would have shown.
So the question is more like what does modern aero do in a group ride. Does your aero wheel get you 2 watts in a group at 35kph? Imagine Bernard Hinault considering his response to 2 watts. The time and effort and money involved in figuring out which hyperwheel to buy could be better spent improving pedal stroke or simply remembering to pedal. Most Mielensteins go on real slow bikes.
Modern bikes are completely fugly and it is only worse when they go slow. Which 98% of them do. A lugged steel Colnago looks good fast or slow.
If 40kph is a normal thing for you to do, solo, on a training ride, knock yourself out and go aero. It won't hurt anything. Recall that in the world of Brit TT it was normal for the fast guys to stay on fixed wheel and a gear of 48x18 in the springtime until they could break the hour on that bike. With fenders. And clinchers so slow and heavy you wouldn't believe.
So the question is more like what does modern aero do in a group ride. Does your aero wheel get you 2 watts in a group at 35kph? Imagine Bernard Hinault considering his response to 2 watts. The time and effort and money involved in figuring out which hyperwheel to buy could be better spent improving pedal stroke or simply remembering to pedal. Most Mielensteins go on real slow bikes.
Modern bikes are completely fugly and it is only worse when they go slow. Which 98% of them do. A lugged steel Colnago looks good fast or slow.
If 40kph is a normal thing for you to do, solo, on a training ride, knock yourself out and go aero. It won't hurt anything. Recall that in the world of Brit TT it was normal for the fast guys to stay on fixed wheel and a gear of 48x18 in the springtime until they could break the hour on that bike. With fenders. And clinchers so slow and heavy you wouldn't believe.
07-11-18, 07:36 PM
#102
~>~
This is what British fixed gear TT bikes look like today adopting the same modern tech as road TT and pursuit bikes
.
https://www.fixedwheel.co.uk/
.
https://www.fixedwheel.co.uk/
07-11-18, 07:55 PM
#104
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: Reno nevada
Posts: 781
Bikes: a few that I can't recall
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 342 Post(s)
Liked 300 Times
in
146 Posts
It should be a law that the stem is parallel with the top tube is parallel with the ground.
And Pinarello forks should be reason enough for citizen's arrest, for insulting the aesthetics of the world.
And Pinarello forks should be reason enough for citizen's arrest, for insulting the aesthetics of the world.
07-11-18, 09:32 PM
#105
Sunshine
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 16,610
Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '88 Schwinn Premis , Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo
Mentioned: 123 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10955 Post(s)
Liked 7,483 Times
in
4,185 Posts
a level top tube and -17stem simply don't fit many cyclists. It's a really tough setup to be comfortable on.
as a result, comically tall Technomic stems are then installed. Not sure how thats a good look, but to each their own.
one of the best parts about modern bikes is the ability to get bars in a position that is comfortable for many(most?) enthusiasts without relying on hilariously tall stems.
if design allows more people to ride comfortably, then perfect. It may not look as traditionally beautiful, but it gets people riding instead of bikes hanging.
07-11-18, 09:33 PM
#106
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
You know those spacers that come with Shimano 10 speed cassettes? Those were because there was on Dura Ace wheel that would only work without them.
Shimano now has brakes that won't work with previous road levers properly.
Tiagra 10 speed is incompatible with parts from previous 10 speed groups.
Shimano 11 speed requires new hubs, instead of building the cassettes the way they did with the 10 speed - an overhang.
Campy 5 chainrings with one offset bolt.
Shimano shifters that don't work with other brands of housing (7900).
BBRight
Licensing Octalink cranks to other crank companies, but not the BBs.
Proprietary aluminum spokes.
Front derailleurs that come with compact groups that won't reach low enough from a braze on.
Bike companies that recommend tires their bikes can't fit.
Proprietary fork steerer sizes that aren't supported.
Proprietary derailleur hangers that aren't supported.
Imagine being unable to ride your 6 year old $5000 frame because the delicate derailleur hanger is no longer available.
Shimano now has brakes that won't work with previous road levers properly.
Tiagra 10 speed is incompatible with parts from previous 10 speed groups.
Shimano 11 speed requires new hubs, instead of building the cassettes the way they did with the 10 speed - an overhang.
Campy 5 chainrings with one offset bolt.
Shimano shifters that don't work with other brands of housing (7900).
BBRight
Licensing Octalink cranks to other crank companies, but not the BBs.
Proprietary aluminum spokes.
Front derailleurs that come with compact groups that won't reach low enough from a braze on.
Bike companies that recommend tires their bikes can't fit.
Proprietary fork steerer sizes that aren't supported.
Proprietary derailleur hangers that aren't supported.
Imagine being unable to ride your 6 year old $5000 frame because the delicate derailleur hanger is no longer available.
Shimano Positron drivetrain? Totally proprietary in the late 70s early 80s.
Campy cable head vs Shimano.
Front Freewheel.
Simplex RD claws.
Campy specific shift bosses.
3 different diameters for a "26in wheel".
Cassette incompatibilities have been around since cassettes were invented almost 40 years ago.
Schwinn-sized stems, BBs, wheels, headsets, etc..
07-11-18, 10:49 PM
#107
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,023
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4377 Post(s)
Liked 1,552 Times
in
1,017 Posts
This kind of stuff is hardly unique to the modern era. With many new technologies developed over the last 30 or so years, of course mechanics is going to get more complex. But to claim that C&V tech was wholly interchangable and simple is silly.
Shimano Positron drivetrain? Totally proprietary in the late 70s early 80s.
Campy cable head vs Shimano.
Front Freewheel.
Simplex RD claws.
Campy specific shift bosses.
3 different diameters for a "26in wheel".
Cassette incompatibilities have been around since cassettes were invented almost 40 years ago.
Schwinn-sized stems, BBs, wheels, headsets, etc..
Shimano Positron drivetrain? Totally proprietary in the late 70s early 80s.
Campy cable head vs Shimano.
Front Freewheel.
Simplex RD claws.
Campy specific shift bosses.
3 different diameters for a "26in wheel".
Cassette incompatibilities have been around since cassettes were invented almost 40 years ago.
Schwinn-sized stems, BBs, wheels, headsets, etc..
I don't think Shimano should make its parts compatible with SRAM or Campy, but they should make it so your 4 year old carbon Dura Ace wheel can have its cassette replaced or the newest Di2 derailleur will fit a standard braze on for a compact crank.
07-12-18, 07:23 AM
#108
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Madison, WI
Posts: 2,701
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1136 Post(s)
Liked 650 Times
in
336 Posts
I think the point being made was that there were much fewer critical dead ends that couldn't be worked around then there are now. Some of the stuff I listed are the same kind of compatibility issues that have always existed. But while Campagnolo adopted the Shimano shifter boss standard, Shimano continually produces dead ends that they make no effort to support. They treat their pro-level equipment as disposable or as beta tests by not providing the small parts and backwards compatibility that Campy was actually rather good about.
I don't think Shimano should make its parts compatible with SRAM or Campy, but they should make it so your 4 year old carbon Dura Ace wheel can have its cassette replaced or the newest Di2 derailleur will fit a standard braze on for a compact crank.
I don't think Shimano should make its parts compatible with SRAM or Campy, but they should make it so your 4 year old carbon Dura Ace wheel can have its cassette replaced or the newest Di2 derailleur will fit a standard braze on for a compact crank.
I'm just trying to combat this kind of thinking, which is much more extreme and absolutist than what you are saying:
Some of the new stuff works well enough. Lots of it only works well enough to sell. All is set up so you have to dive all the way in and get unified systems. Vintage meant everything was compatible with everything, presuming you knew how it worked. No one is coming back to any current production bike when it becomes theoretically vintage after twenty or thirty years. New stuff has a shelf life and it is real short. Service parts are not available when the components are new and certainly won't be in future.
07-12-18, 08:03 AM
#109
Senior Member
Ten Grain
Kontact has more and more current shop experience than I do. "Shimano especially doesn't do a very good job with backwards compatibility." They never did. That has been a constant for the 45 years they have had a big place in the market. Before that all you saw was stuff like the hinky 333 hubs. Which are basically not repairable. They have always abused their status as a giant in the industry. When you have observed consistent behavior for half a century you could get an attitude. Shimano's callous attitude towards consumers, dealers, manufacturers, even their largest manufacturing customers, has taught generations of small innovators you can get away without providing the least support or service and that it only needs to be good enough to sell. I am using 80 year old parts that work perfectly that still have abundant service parts available. I am actually quite interested in new parts but they will have to be around more than weeks or months to catch my attention and will have to be good. Just 'new' fails to impress.
Kontact has more and more current shop experience than I do. "Shimano especially doesn't do a very good job with backwards compatibility." They never did. That has been a constant for the 45 years they have had a big place in the market. Before that all you saw was stuff like the hinky 333 hubs. Which are basically not repairable. They have always abused their status as a giant in the industry. When you have observed consistent behavior for half a century you could get an attitude. Shimano's callous attitude towards consumers, dealers, manufacturers, even their largest manufacturing customers, has taught generations of small innovators you can get away without providing the least support or service and that it only needs to be good enough to sell. I am using 80 year old parts that work perfectly that still have abundant service parts available. I am actually quite interested in new parts but they will have to be around more than weeks or months to catch my attention and will have to be good. Just 'new' fails to impress.
07-12-18, 08:26 AM
#110
Senior Member
Forgot to add that cassette hubs were marketed by Bayliss-Wiley in 1938. Shimano invented nothing.
Bandera's photo shows a level top tube and a 1" headset. Someone might be able to date the helmet. Frame could be anything from late 70s to present.
Bandera's photo shows a level top tube and a 1" headset. Someone might be able to date the helmet. Frame could be anything from late 70s to present.
07-12-18, 09:54 AM
#111
~>~
Banned by the UCI in 2001 Fr Rev-X wheel dates the pic from the Fixed Wheel FG/TT site.
Here's the next generation of design as Ian Cammish shows how get it done on a UCI compliant CF frame in currently fashionable Black.
Each generation of design is demonstrably faster than the last, which is indeed the whole point.
Here's the next generation of design as Ian Cammish shows how get it done on a UCI compliant CF frame in currently fashionable Black.
Each generation of design is demonstrably faster than the last, which is indeed the whole point.
Last edited by Bandera; 07-12-18 at 10:33 AM.
07-12-18, 11:47 AM
#112
Senior Member
Ian Cammish!!! Still at it. There's one fast rider. Whatever he chooses to ride is going to be good and he deserves the best.
If I rode that setup I would just look foolish.
If I rode that setup I would just look foolish.
07-12-18, 12:41 PM
#113
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: Roswell, GA
Posts: 8,319
Bikes: '93 Trek 750, '92 Schwinn Crisscross, '93 Mongoose Alta
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1438 Post(s)
Liked 1,092 Times
in
723 Posts
I'm not into road bikes and I actually like the general design of a lot of modern city bikes. What bothers me is the lack of design of parts, like there's just been an engineer calculating strength and material cost, and didn't bother with the aesthetics at all. Or at least they didn't bother to make clear design choices, like let's make this rectangular, or make this rounded, no, they do something in between which is almost always ugly. It's not just bikes though, since the eighties it seems designers in general were forced to compromise.
07-12-18, 05:22 PM
#114
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,793 Times
in
1,407 Posts
For me, it was when they used blue paint. Talk about fugly. I have always assumed a blue bike came with a free bowl of soup.
07-12-18, 05:26 PM
#115
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Posts: 7,023
Mentioned: 41 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4377 Post(s)
Liked 1,552 Times
in
1,017 Posts
07-12-18, 05:29 PM
#116
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,793 Times
in
1,407 Posts
Dunno ....
But why did the classically beautiful three spoke crank need to change to a 5-spoke monstrosity?
FB Cranks 1 by iabisdb, on Flickr
But why did the classically beautiful three spoke crank need to change to a 5-spoke monstrosity?
FB Cranks 1 by iabisdb, on Flickr
07-13-18, 02:02 PM
#118
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 289
Bikes: Masi Giramondo, Trek 830 monstercross build, Raleigh Gran Sport, Lemond Tourmalet
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 121 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 19 Times
in
12 Posts
I like my vintage Raleigh, but it has nothing on the versatility of my masi giramondo, which you would probably find guilty of the visual sins you mentioned. I just test rode a salsa cutthroat, and besides being a beautiful machine, I think these all road, gravel, bike packing rigs and their variants are the future, because I don't have to concern myself with where I ride. Isn't that what matters? Personally, I have not ridden my road bikes hardly at all in the past two years, but I ride much more because road conditions have been rendered largely irrelevant by bikes that can go anywhere, quickly and comfortably.
07-13-18, 03:07 PM
#119
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 241
Bikes: 2000 GT I-Drive Team MTB, 2005 Specialized Sirrus, 1973 Schwinn World Voyager (frame only), 1975 Peugeot Mixte, 1980 Raleigh Sport, 1980(?) Peugeot, Giant ATX MTB, 2006 GT I-Drive MTB Frame, 2005 Jamis Dakar XLT MTB
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 30 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I don't get the free bowl of soup part.
This is a thread topic that can be discussed till the cows don't come home. To each their own.
07-13-18, 03:42 PM
#120
Senior Member
07-13-18, 04:04 PM
#122
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,793 Times
in
1,407 Posts
07-13-18, 04:05 PM
#123
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: NW Burbs, Chicago
Posts: 12,053
Mentioned: 201 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3015 Post(s)
Liked 3,793 Times
in
1,407 Posts
07-13-18, 07:09 PM
#124
Blamester
Just so surprising to see supposed C&V enthusiasts who sing the praises of the new. At the LBS the other day ran into the former product manager for that big bike company -- you know the one from Chicago? I think they made vintage bikes or something. The mere mention of Shimano in his presence was not a good idea. Because his old employer provided a lot of support for the bikes they sold and support for riders and shops and the community. Shimano never did any of that. Shimano made it hard for a manufacturer to do any of that. Can't stock parts if the manufacturer doesn't have them. Kontact's examples above don't even scratch the surface and it was like that from the beginning. It was never different. And the former PM is still riding his bike. His old bike. And still remembers old acquaintances, even distant acquaintances, and treats everyone right.
If you do fast group rides and take pulls at 50kph and 55kph and need 65kph to stay in the front group in the sprint you are riding a new bike. If I were still able to do that I'd be on a new bike too. Wouldn't make sense to risk an old and irreplaceable bike. Although an old bike could do it, because they did it when they were new. And if you are a small step faster than that you get your bikes given to you.
If fast group ride means you get together with some friends and ride 100k in three hours or so there is not even one advantage to a new bike. How many ride faster than that anyway? If you aren't spending extended amounts of time above 45kph a vintage bike does everything as well or better than the new stuff. How is anyone convinced you can't ride a bike unless it is new? The new bikes are aero, which makes a difference when going very fast. The pedals are perceived as convenient. Shifting can be done without thinking, which may or may not be an advantage. If you must, you can put the new pedals on the old bike. The rest only matters to racers.
Creaking press fit BBs. Press fit BBs at all. Center drilled rims. Infinitely non-interchangeable hubs and rims and spokes. Spokes that never exist as service parts. Cassettes that scream like banshees. Paying money to be 'fitted'.
You can have it in any color you like, so long as it is matte black.
If you do fast group rides and take pulls at 50kph and 55kph and need 65kph to stay in the front group in the sprint you are riding a new bike. If I were still able to do that I'd be on a new bike too. Wouldn't make sense to risk an old and irreplaceable bike. Although an old bike could do it, because they did it when they were new. And if you are a small step faster than that you get your bikes given to you.
If fast group ride means you get together with some friends and ride 100k in three hours or so there is not even one advantage to a new bike. How many ride faster than that anyway? If you aren't spending extended amounts of time above 45kph a vintage bike does everything as well or better than the new stuff. How is anyone convinced you can't ride a bike unless it is new? The new bikes are aero, which makes a difference when going very fast. The pedals are perceived as convenient. Shifting can be done without thinking, which may or may not be an advantage. If you must, you can put the new pedals on the old bike. The rest only matters to racers.
Creaking press fit BBs. Press fit BBs at all. Center drilled rims. Infinitely non-interchangeable hubs and rims and spokes. Spokes that never exist as service parts. Cassettes that scream like banshees. Paying money to be 'fitted'.
You can have it in any color you like, so long as it is matte black.
And the bull**** marketing.
Save 50 watts 60 kph yet at 30kph instead of watts we get a percentege which is 10%. So a couple of watts. And people are genuinely fooled by this.
And on top of all that it's ugly and expensive
07-13-18, 10:43 PM
#125
Old bikes, Older guy
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Fiscal Conservative on the Lefty Coast - Oregon
Posts: 841
Bikes: A few modern, Several vintage, All ridden when weather allows.
Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 250 Post(s)
Liked 165 Times
in
114 Posts
Hi folks,
While there has been technical advances, most of the product changes in the bicycle industry have been marketing and accounting driven. Remember the aero bikes of the 80s. Tapered tubing, aero levers, aero pedals, etc. Did they weigh significantly less or have a lower coefficient of drag, Probably not significant enough to justify the increase in cost. Flat paint doesn't require a clear coat. Constant changes in graphics are driven by a little from both groups. Moving manufacturing off shore reduces cost. Non-rebuildable components forces us to by new ones. Do we really need 22 speeds on a road bike or 30 speeds on an MTB? Disc brakes may be a bit more efficient, but they add about a pound per wheel.
Yes, I like indexed shifting and have never been coordinated enough to effectively use DT shifters. Therefore, I'm a barcon guy. I also like clipless pedals. The old coordination issue again.
Like others, I periodically succumb to technology. I have a sub 20# Ridley CX bike. Is it any better than my 88 Paramount? They ride about the same. The Ridley is a bit quicker and has a stiffer ride. Neither of these is significantly better than my 65 Soens or my 80 custom built sports tourer. Yes, the newer bikes are lighter, stiffer and shift much, much better, but are not as comfortable.
Or maybe, these old bones and muscles just can't tell the difference.
Cheers,
Van
While there has been technical advances, most of the product changes in the bicycle industry have been marketing and accounting driven. Remember the aero bikes of the 80s. Tapered tubing, aero levers, aero pedals, etc. Did they weigh significantly less or have a lower coefficient of drag, Probably not significant enough to justify the increase in cost. Flat paint doesn't require a clear coat. Constant changes in graphics are driven by a little from both groups. Moving manufacturing off shore reduces cost. Non-rebuildable components forces us to by new ones. Do we really need 22 speeds on a road bike or 30 speeds on an MTB? Disc brakes may be a bit more efficient, but they add about a pound per wheel.
Yes, I like indexed shifting and have never been coordinated enough to effectively use DT shifters. Therefore, I'm a barcon guy. I also like clipless pedals. The old coordination issue again.
Like others, I periodically succumb to technology. I have a sub 20# Ridley CX bike. Is it any better than my 88 Paramount? They ride about the same. The Ridley is a bit quicker and has a stiffer ride. Neither of these is significantly better than my 65 Soens or my 80 custom built sports tourer. Yes, the newer bikes are lighter, stiffer and shift much, much better, but are not as comfortable.
Or maybe, these old bones and muscles just can't tell the difference.
Cheers,
Van
__________________
Remember: Real bikes have pedals.
...and never put a yellow tail on a Red, White and Blue kite!
Remember: Real bikes have pedals.
...and never put a yellow tail on a Red, White and Blue kite!