chefdurfee

Thanks for clearing this up, I think its just as you described...and I'll get some washers! sd

merziac

Based on the amount of "fussing" you describe, I would clean and regrease everything after a very close inspection, if it was binding up in that many ways, it may have galled something that might cause a problem down the road.

SJX426 

Couple of things come to mind that are not covered so far, maybe they have been but my comprehension is flawed..
1. Variations of spindles are often marked the same even though they have different dimensions. Note the difference between the last two.
P1030105, on Flickr
2. check your races for any pits or damage. They should be very smooth.
3. Check your bearing balls too.

conspiratemus1

Make sure the washers fit. The last thing you want is for a steel washer to be tearing out those aluminum threads one by one as you tighten the bolt The washer must be a free fit and drop straight into the bottom of the crank hole. There are different sizes... (of course!)

Just to be extra clear on this, you don’t actually see the clearance between the end of the spindle and the face of the crank hole after pressing the crank on because the bolt (and washer!) hides it from view. In the normal course of things you don’t take the bolt and washer out to check. Instead, you just look behind the crank to see how much taper is still showing. Since the crank matches the spindle, both being Campag, residual taper left exposed discloses faithfully how far on the crank has gone. It shouldn’t go all the way on.https://www.sheldonbrown.com/bbtaper.html should illustrate this.

But get your bottom bracket installation and adjustment figured out first. Read Sheldon Brown’s pages on this topic, too. Even with clean new parts, there’s a knack to it. One thing, It is normal for the cup to become looser when you tighten the lock ring because this pulls the cup back against the threads, just like your crank puller tool does. (This is opposite to lock nuts on hub axles which want to push the cones in against the balls when you tighten them.). Campagnolo BBs are very well made and are usually easy to get right without a lot of trial and error, but everything has a learning curve. If you’re having this much trouble, agree you need to be sure nothing in there is worn out. If the spindle is pitted, you’ll never get it smooth without rattling or binding. Cups are durable. If they are pitted or corroded, the bike has been both abused and neglected, a lethal combination.

Keep at it. There are few things more satisfying than getting a high-quality bottom bracket perfect.

jethin

Did you ever dance with the devil in the pale moonlight?

conspiratemus1

Beauties!

I think of the song about the Battle of New Orleans:

I fumbled my grip and the balls they kept a-coming
But there wasn’t nigh as many as there was a while ago.
I fumbled once more and the balls commenced a-running
All off the kitchen table just to bounce upon the floor.
. . .
They rolled through the cobwebs and they rolled through the cat food,
They rolled down the air vent where my magnet wouldn’t go. . . .

chefdurfee

John, one thing that didn't occur to me - what if it;s the ball bearing retainer unit that is the problem? When doing a BB overhaul, I would have expected to replace old bearings with new ones...should I be tossing the old set and putting in new ones? I have gotten to a point where the spindle wiggle is minimal, but then the spindle will not freely turn in a "backwards pedal", but occasionally will bind up.

JohnDThompson 

As long as the retainer isn't bent or damaged, it should be fine. With the 11-ball ones, I often push the old balls out and replace them with new grade 25 balls, and it works fine.

Was it able to turn smoothly after the last time it was overhauled or installed? What you describe may be that the bottom bracket shell needs to be faced so the bearing race is normal to the spindle axis.

Johno59

Sounds to me that you have the wrong axle. The shoulders on the axle are either too far in (wobbly crank) or too far out (the bearing cups screw out or in when u pedal).
if all is correct check for a hair-line fracture on the bottom of the crank around the square tape hole. A crack here will undo any correct adjustment once you put pressure on the crank. It can be very difficult to see with no pressure applied.

conspiratemus1

Further up the thread the OP reported the measurements on his spindle and they were correct for an Italian Nuovo Record BB. That was my thought, too.
He isn’t close yet to where trouble-shooting progresses to cracked cranks. Not something you want to miss, I just mean he’s having trouble even before he gets the cranks on.

This is frustrating, for him and for us. I bet if we could look at the bike and twiddle the spindle the problem would be instantly obvious. But nothing is easy the first time.

conspiratemus1

I’m puzzled by this. How does an out-of-normal BB shell face affect the bearing alignment? The cups both follow the threads of the shell, and the spindle follows the cups. None of the bearing parts “know” that the shell faces are off-kilter, do they? True, the lock ring won’t sit right against the shell, but he’s having trouble even before the lock ring goes on, If the drive-side face was off, wouldn’t the threads still cause the fixed cup to drive in straight? It would only be the final contact of the fixed-cup’s flange with the shell that would gap, no?

Presumably the OP did not remove the fixed cup, nor should he, without good reason. What if the fixed cup was cross threaded so it really is crooked in the shell, never mind the facing. Could this produce the inability to get the adjustment right, because the two bearing surfaces are not parallel, and not normal to the spindle?

Johno59

The OP said the spindle was originally around the wrong way. I suggest the spindle wasn't around the wrong way - it was perhaps the wrong spindle period.
I suggest the OP acquire the correct spindle,
(not an expensive Campag one but a correct alternative) and see if that fits.

SurferRosa

No pics? What year is it?

conspiratemus1

The BB is a Nuovo Record, whose cups are extra thick, to accommodate the rifling. No other spindle, cheap or otherwise, will fit because the bearing shoulders will be the usual “thin-cup” distance apart (too wide).

chefdurfee

Actually, I did remove the fixed cup, because I thought I needed to do this in order to properly grease it and do a thorough assessment and overhaul....the fixed cup looked as though a previous owner removed it with a crescent wrench...I at least bought the proper wrench to do this job. Remember, I just bought this bike, so I don't know if/when it was last serviced. I do know the BB was loose when I bought it, and the spindle (correct or not) was in backwards - based on the concept that the drive side measures longer, and that it should read :"Campagnolo" right side up when viewed from the rear.

merziac

Good on ya for taking it completely apart.

Do the cups thread all the way in easily?

This can be critical for good proper adjustment regardless of all else.

conspiratemus1

They are called fixed cups for a reason: they are meant to stay fixed in place, once reefed in hard enough not to unscrew, as these RH-threaded Italian cups are wont to do. You remove them only if you are going to trash the frame — the BB is worth more than the frame. Check that you haven’t cross-threaded it and that it is in really tight. The special wrench you bought will not be enough by itself to tighten it adequately— you will need additional torque and a means to keep the wrench from slipping off the flats of the fixed cup as you apply that he-man torque. You referred to damage to those flats from prior wrenching. If your tool can’t get a good grip on the flats you are euchred unless you can use one of Sheldon Brown’s methods. His tips for removing a fixed cup apply to getting it back in. Don’t do anything further with this project until you have that fixed cup back in, tight, where it’s supposed to be. Nothing will be right if this isn’t.

Anyway, if that is as far as the left cup will screw in before it contacts the balls, something is seriously wrong. As shown, the spindle is too long for the frame, yet you seem to have the correct NR spindle (according to your measurements) for the NR cups. Way up top you said the BB measured 70 mm. Did you measure the BB shell , of the frame, at 70, or the BB itself, fitted together outside the frame? Italian frames are supposed to have 70 mm shells, so they take 70 mm BBs, but sometimes they get milled down to less than that, so the proper spindle no longer fits. The other possibility is that you measured the spindle incorrectly. Look very carefully on the diagrams to verify where the breakpoints of the three segments are measured. If you were using a Record (wide-shouldered) spindle with thick NR cups in a shell that was too narrow, you could end up with your photo.

Finally, a last bit of homework. Take the spindle in your hand, slip a ring of balls over the end, then pop the left cup over the spindle so it nestles against the balls. Turning the spindle against the cup it should feel as smooth as glass, even if there is no grease. (Because the cup is free to wobble, you have to make sure the spindle can’t rub against the aperture of the cup, for this to be a valid test.). Now remove the cup and balls and apply the same test to the other ring of balls and the fixed cup, which I gather is back in the frame. Should be same quiet smoothness, no grinding or scratchy sounds.

So, to recap:
1. Get that fixed cup back in straight and tight and leave it alone.
2. Double check measurements of the spindle segments (distance between shoulders, really) and the BB shell of the frame
3. Verify bearing fit and smoothness as above.

(Your inferences about spindle orientation are correct, by the way.)

Edit: looking at your spindle, top end in the photo, looks to be drive side, is that a crater I see in the bearing surface? Left edge just before it disappears around to the back. It wouldn’t explain why the cup won’t go on far enough but it would explain why you can’t get the play out without getting binding and “catching”, and why you can’t find the sweet spot. The spindle is toast if that is a pothole and not just a smear of grease. Focus and resolution too poor to be sure.

dddd

Take not of how the cup can be tilted back and forth a bit after being threaded in (but before actually bottoming on the end face).

I kind of doubt that the facing being off is the culprit here, but the cup will end up tilted off-axis if the face isn't square with the threaded axis.

Johno59

If the BB shell was too narrow the bottom of the crank would still be well clear of the outside face of the bearing cup, not hard up against it as depicted in the OPs foto. Too many threads (as per foto) of the bearing cup would still be exposed beyond a supposedly narrow BB shell but the crank base would be 4/5mm further out.
The foto suggests to me the whole bearing assembly cannot screw into the BB shell coz the shoulders on the spindle are way too near the spindle end.
That is to say the outer bearing assembly and the spindle are not a mating pair.

conspiratemus1

Thank you for that.

conspiratemus1

I’m inclined to think I am converging into agreement with you.

chefdurfee

The fixed cup, somewhat worse for wear

BB shell

NR(?) adjustable cup

chefdurfee

[QUOTE=conspiratemus1;21712190]
Take the spindle in your hand, slip a ring of balls over the end, then pop the left cup over the spindle so it nestles against the balls. Turning the spindle against the cup it should feel as smooth as glass, even if there is no grease. (Because the cup is free to wobble, you have to make sure the spindle can’t rub against the aperture of the cup, for this to be a valid test.). Now remove the cup and balls and apply the same test to the other ring of balls and the fixed cup, which I gather is back in the frame. Should be same quiet smoothness, no grinding or scratchy sounds.

CHECK

bulgie 

I haven't read the whole thread (mea culpa) but has this been mentioned yet?
I think the cups are Super Record (could also be "Record-C"). You know, the aluminum cups with steel bearing races pressed in, which require a Super Record (or Record-C) spindle, and smaller 3/16" balls. Those cups will not work with a Record or NR spindle, and can't take 1/4" balls

Wouldn't that be funny if that were the cause of the whole problem? I think it just might be.

Mark B in Seattle

Johno59

These Campag fixed bearing cups have two flats on the fixed end so that they can be removed much more easily than most of the vintage British BBs which cab be a real pain. 'Fixed' means non-adjustable not non-removable - so kudos for being thorough. The cosmetic damage indicates the wrong tool used and/or turning the wrong way when trying to extract.
I suspect you have a mismatch of C Record and Record bits as bulgie suggested above,. The good news is both C Record and Record componentry are of the first order, so when you finally get matching bits you will have two very desirable vintage BBs.
Looking at your more recent fotos I suspect the axle is the older bit. Measure an individual ball fromboth cages to check what one belongs to cup and axle and go forward.