rebel1916

It does that on a motorbike too. Watch the racers with their chins on the backside of their shoulders looking all the way through a turn. Target fixation, it can be your best friend or your worst enemy!

FractalBox

If you are comparing a Motorcycle to a Bicycle... perhaps I have misunderstood. However, yes it is Physics plus a bit..

Steering in both, along with 'mass', 'spring', 'damper', comes with a right half plane zero. You have to do the wrong thing to get the end result.

If you try and close a, non-predictive, feedback loop around such a system near the frequency at which it occurs it, and you, will 'face plant' yourselves. This is why it takes a bit of time to learn to ride a bike and indeed adjust to riding a new one.

Your feedback loop is 'predictive', in fact it learns...

You can probably find some You-Tube vids of 'computahs' doing the same balancing brooms and double or triple joints vertically. Others might call it 'muscle memory' and substantially it does not involve the 'higher functioning' parts of your brain.

Go for a walk and try to consciously tell yourself to stop walking.

This will appear to be obtuse, back to front, but it is possible that your 'perceived twitchiness' on the motorcycle is a result of you being able to use your slower 'concious', and still predictive or learning, brain to 'kick it' where you want it to go and recover.

Effectively your Motorcycle steering dynamics are slug, foot torn off, slow.

You feel a 'thrill' from being on the edge of a 'face plant' or perhaps a perception that you are in more control whereas in fact you are not... or you could be borderline.

I would suggest that your Bicycles 'dynamics' are above those that your 'concious' brain can deal with and as a result you are relying on the subconscious, autonomic once it has learned, system to deal with things.

Unfortunately this means the higher level 'Cheese Burger with extra Fries' seeking functions in your brain feel they have been robbed of control.

FBinNY 

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that it eyeball steering didn't work on MCs. Fact is it works in cars too and they don't tilt. It even works when walking or running. My point to the OP was to stop overthinking and give himself time to adapt and adjust his instincts to the difference in steering feel of the two different vehicles.

cycle_maven

Agreed- the bicycle wheel is a lot lighter than a motorcycle wheel, and countersteering a bicycle won't yield the instant response as the motorcycles I've ridden (Nortons and Triumphs; I'm old) due to less gyroscopic influences from a lighter wheel and slower speeds. But countersteering will set me into a lean faster than not countersteering even on a bicycle. If you want a good snappy countersteer, then you could get a great big heavy front tire and fill it with Slime, and ride the bike really fast. That would probably do more than decreasing the trail by a cm or two.

Booger1

Want twitchy steering? Change the fork so you have zero trail or add a set of panniers in front of your front axle....it'll be plenty twitchy....

cyccommute 

Let me preface this. I don't ride motorcycles. I've ridden them but not on a regular basis. However, I do have lots and lots of experience with riding bicycles at all kinds of speeds. I'm also good at observing and I have watched motorcycles riding at low speed. Almost all of them saw the front wheel back and forth in an exaggerated manner when they are riding at slow speeds and trying to make a turn. Let's also not forget that a "slow" speed on a motorcycle is a good brisk speed on a bicycle.

Now if supremekizzle is trying to steer like he does on a motorcycle, he is exaggerating the countersteer movement and this will result in a lag in the steering. He only needs to move the bars a tiny bit in the opposite direction of the corner but he is probably moving the front wheel several inches away from the corner and then making the turn so, of course, the steering will seem slow.

Countersteering on a bicycle is so tiny and subtle that most of us don't even notice it which is why many people don't know what countersteer is.

supremekizzle

I appreciate what a lot of you are saying in regards to my"technique" but I most assuredly am not completely"doing it wrong. Most of you don't realize it, but you're still counter steering. Of course motorcycles are heavier, but some of the physics have to be the same. I'd be willing to bet if you go out on your bike, stand up on your pedals, keep the bars on your bike completely straight, and then tilt your bike sideways underneath you; your bike will have minimal steering movement. You counter steer to turn and despite what you think, there's nothing wrong with consciously thinking about it. It's just that it is now muscle memory for you guys.

Like I said, the motorcycle in this demonstration is wayyyy heavier than a bike, but the principal is the same.

FBinNY 

Let's start with the basics and what countersteering is all about. Two wheeled vehicles balance by keeping the wheels below the center of (CoG). In straight riding the wheel track swings back and forth to recover falls to either side as they start. Speed is a factor because the the track changes faster, which is why it's hard to ride straight and slow.

When turning, it's necessary to bring wheel track outside of the CoG so the rider isn't thrown to the outside. Counter steering moves the track out a bit (left, if making a right turn), but most importantly delays the turn a bit so the wheel track is farther along and outside the DoG turning circle. Again speed is a factor, since every microsecond has a bigger effect with more speed.

I remain convinced that it's more an issue of getting used to the difference in perceived steering response than actual steering response. BTW- I ride both MCs and bicycles, but bicycles more, and I have the opposite impression from the OPs, finding that I must more consciously counter steer the MC vs any of my bikes.

supremekizzle

I'm sorry, but you won't see exaggerated steering on a motorcycle at 25 mph. Or you would have seen them crash. Coincidentally, this is the same speed I was riding my bike at. No exaggerated turning there either.

AnkleWork

Bikes respond to counter-steering slower than motorcycles mostly because of center of gravity height . . . can't do much about that. If you want to (slightly) speed up bike steering while keeping your flexy fork, switch to a very short stem.

fietsbob

N+1 .. want fast steering ? small wheels, short trail .

as said earlier Lose the suspension fork , increase the fork rake , and so shorten up the Trail .

supremekizzle

And that was part of my question. Whether there was something I could do about the steering feeling sluggish, or if it's the nature of a bike. Thank you

supremekizzle

Some advice besides, "your technique is wrong," thank you! Perhaps shorter stem and narrower bars, similar to clip ons for a sport bike.

AnkleWork

Should be faster yet. You can only move your arms so fast.

cyccommute 

Compared to a bicycle, the handlebar movement of a motorcycle is exaggerated at all speeds. At 25 mph, if you are an outside observer, you can see a visible movement of the handlebars on a motorcycle when initiating the turn (watch the video you posted, especially the computer generation near the end). On a bicycle, 25 mph is a high rate of speed and requires so little countersteering that you won't see a visible movement of the handlebars. You can't really see a visible movement of the handlebars due to countersteering on a bicycle above 10 mph. Try riding a motorcycle at 10 mph and you will see very visible handlebar movement.

The physics and principles are the same but the magnitude is far different.

supremekizzle

I think I found a couple of reasons why the ninja's steering feels so much quicker.



First, the bars are angled back, so by the time you push the bars forward enough to get steering response, your not even at the point where the bar would be perpendicular to the wheel. The bars on my bike are perpendicular to the wheel with the wheel straight, so I have to actually push past this perpendicular line to get movement.

Secondly, the forks on the motorcycle go all the way up to the bars. Whereas on the bicycle, the bars are connected to the forks at a single point and it is split to the opposite sides of the wheel.

I doubt I'll ever get the steering response of a motorcycle on a bicycle. I'll just have to adapt to that. That's acceptable, but telling me consciously counter steering is a bad thing is just bad advice...

Bandera

My Vitus does not steer like my VFR, expecting it to is unreasonable.
Adaptation to both is essential, after years operating both in a variety of conditions they feel "natural".
That's an illusion of adaptation, it took seat time to learn each machine's personality.
Counter-steering on a bicycle is so subtle & instant I wouldn't obsess about it, just ride.

All of the important lessons from the MSF Basic course I apply on any flavor of "bike" on any ride:

Look through the turn.
The bike will follow you eyes.
Don't target fixate.
Scan the road ahead constantly.
Get you speed modulation done before the apex.
Keep your traction reserve in hand.
The fast line is the smooth line.
Relax and let the bike ride itself.
Wear a helmet.
There is no substitute for seat time.
I do not and never will know it all.

-Bandera

caloso

I'd suggest riding no-handed for a bit, until you become accustomed to the fact that steering a bike requires no handlebar input, countersteering or otherwise.

supremekizzle

Did you watch the video above? (Yes it's a motorcycle, but the principal the same nonetheless) When you lean a bike the bars turn opposite the lean and auto counter steer for you. Your bike is still counter steering despite what you think.

ThermionicScott 

I certainly wouldn't expect snappy performance out of a cheap hybrid. What's the question, again?

cycle_maven

Agreed.

Anyway, how do folks think a turn is initiated? Without countersteering, either through moving the handlebars or by moving the plane of the bike away from vertical to accomplish the auto-countersteer, you'd always stay balanced. You can't just thrust your butt one way and expect your center of gravity to change.

cyccommute 

You can angle the bars back on a bicycle as far as you like and you won't find a quicker response. Wide swept back bars slow the steering on a bicycle. You have a great lever but it moves more slowly. Mountain bikes use wide (660mm +) bars and their steering is slower than that of a road bike with 440mm bars. If you really want to go twitchy, you go to a hipster super stubby handlebar. I've seen some that are as narrow as 6" (15 cm). That's 3" on each side of the stem.

Double crown forks are used on downhill mountain bikes. A downhill mountain bike is designed to be more stable on downhills. Putting a massive double crown fork on a bicycle isn't going to make the bike steer more quickly.

Your other statement about the forks splitting to the opposite sides of the wheel makes no sense even for a double crown fork like on the motorcycle. The legs of the fork move together as one unit. It's a bad thing for the legs to move independently. And, like with the handlebars, you can move the smaller diameter steertube faster than you can a double crown. It's easier to move the fork with a large lever but it's not faster. And, in the case of a bicycle, you don't need much leverage to move it. You could even steer your bike with just the stem...well, you could try. The steering is so quick that you'd have problems keeping up with it.

You are throughly misunderstanding the discussion. I did not say that you don't consciously countersteer. I said it is so subtle that you don't notice it. If you are actively moving the bars to steer into a corner, you are putting too much countersteer on the bike and it will slow down. Essentially, you are doing a sickle turn. You aren't counter steering so much as you are steering left then steering right. Think less about the turn and more about the lean. As someone said above, the steering is more about slight body movements than moving your hands. For example, in the video, they have a tandem rider pushing on the bar to throw the bike off track and demonstrate how little effort is needed. Bicycles need even less effort. I've ridden tandems and a little hip movement by the stoker can throw the bike way off line.

There is also a power issue. On a motorcycle, you have power to pull you through the turn. You have so much power, in fact, that you could easily slide off the road if you don't steer into the turn to avoid the skid. You don't have that kind of power on a bicycle. You are at the mercy of momentum and if you scrub speed by doing a sickle turn, it's not easy to get back.

cny-bikeman

Actually, I don't expect my center of gravity to change vertically but I certainly can initiate a turn that way. Doing so brings the bike out of plane and initiates a turn without counter-steer. I can ride next to the edge of a road, and by shifting my hips to the left, turn left without going over the edge of the road to the right. It's actually the only way to avoid running off the road under such situations, and a skill that I have taught others, along with the instant-turn.

cyccommute 

Yes, you can. That's how your move the bicycle away from the vertical plane at higher speeds. Bicycles are high center of gravity vehicles. A little bit of change to that high center of gravity has more of an effect on the vehicle's path than if the CG were lower like a motorcycle. The high CG is also the reason that you don't have to large countersteering movements like you do on a motorcycle. The CG on a motorcycle is down between the wheels. The CG has to be moved out of the vertical plane aggressively to get it to change. The CG on a bicycle is a longer lever which does more to move the bicycle/rider system out of the vertical plane.

Another way to think about it is to think about which would be harder to turn over and which would corner better: a 4x4 with 12" of lift or a an Italian super car? And why?


I would disagree. The counter steer is still there but the amount needed to shove the bicycle off plane is tiny. It becomes even smaller with speed...just as it does on motorcycles.

bobotech

Okay, I'm rather confused at this point. Can someone explain to me in a nice simple sentence what counter-steering is? I have had motorcycles and am riding bicycles but I'm still not sure what it is.

I watched the video but honestly, I'm not entirely sure what I was watching for. Still very interesting.