zacster

While I disagree with much of what you have said in this thread, I will agree that there doesn't ever seem to be a cycle only trail where the expectation is that cyclists will be traveling at higher speed. Even in places where there is a bike lane and a separate pedestrian lane, the bikers are expected to slow down for the peds.

I was driving (yes I drive) along Ocean Parkway in Brooklyn yesterday, which has 6 car lanes in the center, with tree lined islands on each side, and another lane beyond those with parking, then the sidewalk. On the east side islands are signs that say "No Bikes". On the west side island there is a rail to separate the pedestrian walk from the paved cycle path. There is no sign that says "Bikes ONLY" or "NO PEDESTRIANS". And of course what you have is people with strollers, dog walkers, etc... on the bike lane. This situation is not new, the path has been there since the road was built by Olmstead when the parkway system and the parks were built in the 1800s, or at least when it was converted to car use. Ocean Parkway History/pics

As for the Sammamish trail, I always used that with the understanding that it was going to have a lot of slower riders and walkers in popular stretches. It wasn't a place to ride fast on a sunny weekend.

Shifty

CB, you may want to re-read my post.

What I think I said in plain language is that the racer - pacers seem to be breaking the rules of speed and common sense when riding where other users present a safety hazard. I'm sure I didn't say anything about banning anyone from using a multiple use path, that's what a "multiple use" is after all. We don't have any "bikes only" paths, and I'm not sure I've ever seen one anywhere.

As for bikes restricting cars to 15 mph on highways, you seem to VASTLY overstate this in your argument. I've lived in Hawaii, I know there maybe a few roads without shoulders where cars need to be careful passing bikes, but that takes seconds, or a minute to slow and pass safely, you make it sounds like a much more involved problem. It certainly is not a problem here in Oregon, we get along on the roads just fine, and nice shoulders exist on roads for the most part, so cars rarely have to slow at all to pass a bike safely. By Oregon law a bike is a legal vehicle on all roads except interstate highways, that's about the end of that, isn't it?

CB HI

Then maybe you need shoulders on the bike paths (now called MUPs) for the walkers, so you can all get along on the bike paths (now called MUPs) just fine in Oregon.

As to freeways, are you sure, my understanding is:
There is an Oregon administrative rule allowing bicycles on all freeways except a few specific sections like the Sunset highway tunnel and the Fremont bridge.

And Oregon bicycle laws are more screwed up than most states:
https://bikelaws.org/laws/Oregon.pdf

CB HI

I re-read your post and it is just as misguided a response to my post as when read the first time.

Bekologist

what exactly is the problem on the trail again, CBHI ?

the pacelines, the trail itself, the speed limit, the increased recreation it brings to the entire community? Are the problems with the trail associated with the greater visibility of more bicyclists in the community and more bikes on the roads adjacent the trail, greater quality outdoor experiences, increased property values?

are the problems in the rails to trails conversions, or the crowding of a great recreational resource? should the trails be larger, more developed, what??

Are the problems that 'bike paths' are now called MUPS, but there's still federal money being spent on what are now multiple user paths? Ban pedestrians from public, non-motorized transportation corridors because of the bicycles? stop building MUPs altogther?

And, more tellingly, what impact are these sammammish trail pacelines having on the bicycling in Honolulu?

MAYBE the problems are the bald eagles or the feral chickens in Bothell. too much wildlife!! No respect from the feral chickens!!

mattm

Again, 5th Ave!! You have to like hills though.. no roots to bounce around on, no strollers, and some nice climbs.

https://veloroutes.org/s/1363

CliftonGK1

Thankfully our 300k on Saturday put us on/off the trail at sections which avoided the dreaded feral chickens. Although we did get to enjoy the root heaves between 65th and the tunnel, and the stop signs on the sections in Marymoor (Connector Trail) and from the tunnel back to U-Village.

The AM segment of the trail (65th to the tunnel, and from Redhook through Marymoor) was fairly deserted because is was before 8am on a Saturday. The PM segment (tunnel to U-Village) was likewise empty since we hit that around 8pm; it was dark and most people were already out at the pub or home for the evening. We had a large group (about a dozen riders) and had no issues with grouping down singlefile when the lead riders would call out "walker up" or "riders up" to the rest of the pack. No complaints from anyone we passed, even though we were moving very quickly (17 - 19mph).
It was funny when we passed a group of riders who appeared to be in their cooldown (decked out in fancy pro kit, etc. but rolling slowly) and one of them could only muster a muted "holy s___" as the freight train of randos went barrelling past. We were left to chuckle and wonder: Was it our pace? Was it our numbers? Was it the fact that our LED generator lights lit up the night like the ballpark? Maybe a combo of all 3...

milnerpt

hm. ill have to do that 5th ave sometime....

CB HI

To make it very simple for you Bek, the whiners and those that want to restrict/prohibit faster cyclist.

InTheRain

So how does it work out for those guys "pacelining" or riding 25-30 mph on an MUP when they quickly approach a dog walker that has the leash stretched out across the trail? Yard sale?? It would be fun to see that! I don't think a crowded section of an MUP is a good place to practice your racing skills... whether it's legal or not.

I know someone that carries a length of pipe with him on his walks for his personal safety. He has mentioned that he has been tempted to stick that metal pipe into the wheels of speeding cyclists at times. I guess that would bring down the speed quite drastically very quickly. Hopefully he doesn't do it... however, I've seen cyclists that probably deserve it.

I don't live in the Seattle/King County area so I'm not sure what options race teams have. However, I rarely see race teams on the MUP's in Thurston County. Maybe in the dead of winter and when it's dark, otherwise, I think they prefer the roads (we have plenty of great roads for cycling.)

Bekologist

That's the other users of a public nonmotorized transportation cooridor you're referring to, cbhi?

considerate people that think safety and respect for all trail users trump cyclists pushing a few extra MPH in congested conditions.

i doubt anyone has problems with pacelines on a deserted sammamish valley trail in the middle of a rainy midweek february day. Cyclists, even 'paceline groups' should have no problem riding as quck as they want, even on summer weekend afternoons so long as they are considerate of other trail users.

MOST roadies don't have bells to alert other trail users of bikes approaching. Lackus gonga is a sad state of bicycling affairs - in my opinion far worse than crowding on non motorized transportation corridors.

The largest problems I personally encounter on the Sammamish Valley Trail is caused by feral chicken congestion.

Bogester 

That and roots uplifting the pavement...at least on the BG. I ride a fat-tired 650b bike most of the time and get bounced around. I can't imagine racing down that trail at full speed on skinny tires.

FallsApart

First of all, I like that someone from Hawaii is making such a fuss about the BG and the slough. And I'd argue, to his kvetching, that MUPs and Bike paths are different. Not just one renamed as the other. So, yea - CB HI, you haven't ridden these paths, you don't know who uses them, you don't know the culture that surrounds them or how our bike community feels about them (differently, but generally avoids serious workouts), so i understand why you would misunderstand the silliness of anyone really cruising at that speed on a busy day like that (regardless of their status as a paceline). But still, so many opinions, so much for us to learn from you! Awesome.

Everyone here who has ridden the BG has faced the crowds of families, commuters, hipsters, college kids, etc. It's a fantastic trail, but it's not a bike-only path. There are some sections you can ride super fast, but most get really busy. If I'm trying to get a workout in, I avoid the BG like the plague because it's dangerous and obnoxious (to everyone involved) to weave through strollers, dogs, and six year olds on trikes. And I really think most of the cycling community in Seattle understands that. As in Clifton's post, it's all about context, and I think most people slow down.

CB HI

FallsApart,
Such a mindset is why you have such a hard time learning.
Second, why do you assume that I have never lived in the area, let alone gone riding in the Seattle or Greater Puget Sound area. That seems to be a common elitist position from many in the PNW.

If the rest of your post is true, then why do so many Seattle locals constantly whine about other cyclist, especially those using the paths.

Clearly the cyclist you guys whine so much about, disagree with your position, contrary to your claims of solidarity.


PS: Maybe I even own a hand built bent, that I bought in Eugene OR.

Bekologist

Well, somebody's obviously got bent ~

FERAL CHICKENS i tell ya.

Kneez

Oh, never mind...

plodderslusk

Fast groupriding and kids and dogs simply do not go together. However much CB HI is in the "right" to be riding fast on HIS biketrail, he will have to live with causing harm to that kid suddenly loosing control of her bike. Pacelining should be done as part of regular traffic.

vrkelley

I've encountered several near-misses with the ByrneInvent (red and blue jersey). Weaving, passing, and forcing oncoming strollers, and bikers out of the way. They totally ignore hails to 'watch it'.

CB HI

Enjoy your new posted 10 mph speed limits soon to be posted on your former bike paths, then called MUPs and soon to be called Off-Road Sidewalks.

CliftonGK1

5/10. Fail.
Posted limit is already 10mph in many areas.
Dredging up 2 month old post just to pick a fight.

CB HI

Really, then why the big fuss over reducing speed limits to 10 mph in the other thread?
And you are the one that said the posted limit was 15 mph.

CliftonGK1

The other thread is about the Cedar River Trail, not the SRT/BGT. The 10mph enforcement will be on Renton city trails, not the Sam. River or Burke Gilman Trails, which already have 10mph speed limits in congested areas like Wilmot Gateway Park and Bothell Landing.

milnerpt

I thought the original complaint is about pacelining the trails. you can paceline at 10mph.

how about instead people just ride with some courtesy and common sense?

ps - when I run intervals, I break 10mph. I better watch out.

Bekologist

I rarely see real egregious behavior on the MUPs but last night had a hotshot yelling 'on your left' as if it automatically let him and his buddy in their two year old team kits have carte blanche to try and pass on the B-G in Wallingford right at the conflux of the trail and the bad sightline intersection where NE 36th street comes up. right in the midst of a half dozen other cyclists, pedestrians, and cars all coming togther into this clusterfuzzle at 36th and the Burke Gilman, and these guys want people to CLEAR A PATH.

what a couple of kitted clowns. no trail manners or safety sense. I gave them a stern "hold back" and the wavedown, and they still thought they could clear the way by shouting on your left like a couple of two-bit russian thugs in a blue light Lada.

mattm

Interesting story, thought I don't see what their kits have to do with it.