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1996 Koga-Miyata SilverAce Project

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1996 Koga-Miyata SilverAce Project

Old 10-04-19, 05:48 PM
  #51  
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what a cool project
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Old 10-05-19, 04:14 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Exactly what I had hoped...answers my question about this:




Too bad finding chaincases in the US is next to impossible.

-Kurt
Yes that looks very similar to what's on this bike here. Should offer a fairly direct mount for most Dutch chainguards.

Originally Posted by Soody View Post
what a cool project
Thanks.

I'll keep posting updates here. Did a quick calculation on what parts I still need and what that might cost so this might slow down a bit in the next few months as other expenses take priority.
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Old 10-20-19, 09:44 AM
  #53  
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Finally got around to polishing and waxing the frame today. Really helps with the deep green color. Hell, even the plastic chainguard is reflective now.

I bought some cheap cables and hooked up the gearing cable to see how everything works and I ran into some small issues.
Chainline seems to be fairly off, looks like I will need to order a different bottom bracket but perhaps I will measure the rear fork first to see if that one isn't off.


Next I mounted the front rack, a nice and shiny stainless steel Pelago model, and used a spare wheel to see how it looks.
I like the look but I wonder if the bike wouldn't look better without the rear rack?
There is the added functionality of being able to carry more stuff/someone but I'm not sure yet.




Took the stainless steel covered seatpost from the RoadAce to get a feel for the height and stem.


Not pictured above but I managed to score a sweet Lepper Weltmeister sprung saddle. I sold a previous one to a friend for a cheap tourer in the form of a Koga-Miyata GentsTourer (which uses the rifled version of the FM-1 tubing and is a really light bike) and he mentioned it's a very comfortable saddle.



Last edited by JaccoW; 10-21-19 at 01:06 PM.
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Old 10-20-19, 02:34 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Next I mounted the front rack, a nice and shiny stainless steel Pelago model, and used a spare wheel to see how it looks.
I like the look but I wonder if the bike wouldn't look better without the rear rack?
There is the added functionality of being able to carry more stuff/someone but I'm not sure yet.
Sharp stuff. Shame to hear the BB isn't a great fit, but all part of the process. Helps to have a big pile of them!

I'd complement the Pelago front rack with a matching Pelago commuter rear rack. The finishes would match, and you could get them both level. The latter is the biggest thing letting down the existing rear rack when combined with the Pelago front. On its own, it's not as noticeable.

-Kurt
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Old 10-21-19, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Sharp stuff. Shame to hear the BB isn't a great fit, but all part of the process. Helps to have a big pile of them!

I'd complement the Pelago front rack with a matching Pelago commuter rear rack. The finishes would match, and you could get them both level. The latter is the biggest thing letting down the existing rear rack when combined with the Pelago front. On its own, it's not as noticeable.

-Kurt
Yeah bottom brackets are generally pretty cheap so it'll be alright. I'll need to disassemble the chaincase to see how far we're off but I expect about 10-15mm.

The Pelago rear is pretty nice but it might be a bit overkill for my usage. I'll throw the RoadAce's rack on a scale some time and see how much it weighs, it feels pretty light.
Luckily I have a shop nearby that sells Pelago bikes so I can probably just drop by to see it in person.
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Old 10-21-19, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Yeah bottom brackets are generally pretty cheap so it'll be alright. I'll need to disassemble the chaincase to see how far we're off but I expect about 10-15mm.

The Pelago rear is pretty nice but it might be a bit overkill for my usage. I'll throw the RoadAce's rack on a scale some time and see how much it weighs, it feels pretty light.
Luckily I have a shop nearby that sells Pelago bikes so I can probably just drop by to see it in person.
You're lucky that you have a standard BB. That Gazelle I'm working on has a press fit unit. I might have to order cups for it if the Easy Flow chainguard that Gazelle is sending me will adapt to that bike.

It's pretty nice and overkill, but hey - why not go all-out on something like the SilverAce?

-Kurt
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Old 11-13-19, 09:50 AM
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No big updates for this project but I noticed there was some drag in the hub.
Seeing as how I've overhauled a 3-speed before I decided to take it apart, relube and put everything back together again.

We're not at that stage yet though.

The hub has a lock ring that requires a special tool. I tried using regular tools and a hammer but the aluminum didn't like it all that much so I ordered the tool.
When I open things up I might as well replace some of the more wear-prone parts and give it a good overhaul.

Got the parts today and will probably open everything up somewhere next week.
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Old 11-15-19, 09:52 AM
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Looking forward to hearing how it goes. I'm a bit hesitant to stick my nose in some of the newer hubs, especially the Sturmey 8-speeds. That many gears in a hub has to result in some form of miniaturization to make reassembly a living nightmare

Curious to see how the new 5-speeds compare with the old FW-based two-chain design.

-Kurt
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Old 11-15-19, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Looking forward to hearing how it goes. I'm a bit hesitant to stick my nose in some of the newer hubs, especially the Sturmey 8-speeds. That many gears in a hub has to result in some form of miniaturization to make reassembly a living nightmare

Curious to see how the new 5-speeds compare with the old FW-based two-chain design.

-Kurt
I have taken apart a newer Shimano Nexus 8-speed before and it ran for a couple of years before falling apart around the 40,000+ km mark.

These XL-RD5(w) hubs have been superseded by the RXL-RD5 model back in 2010-2015. They do however share a large number of parts with the classic AW hubs so they are easy to maintain. Apparently slippage is common in 4-th gear but that is down to some of the shifter models. Users seem to be happy with these hubs.

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=128417
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Old 11-15-19, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
I have taken apart a newer Shimano Nexus 8-speed before and it ran for a couple of years before falling apart around the 40,000+ km mark.

These XL-RD5(w) hubs have been superseded by the RXL-RD5 model back in 2010-2015. They do however share a large number of parts with the classic AW hubs so they are easy to maintain. Apparently slippage is common in 4-th gear but that is down to some of the shifter models. Users seem to be happy with these hubs.

https://forum.cyclinguk.org/viewtopic.php?t=128417
I get the feeling that Shimano's R&D budget tends to result in IGH hubs with much more longevity relative to complexity and size. The Nexus 8 seems to have a pretty good track record; I'm surprised that it had to be retired at all - too much wear all around, I take it?

Ironically, I'm going to have to eat my own words, as the X-RD8 on the Gazelle turns out to be dead in fourth and sixth - it'll have to come apart. Will post that in the Dockless Donor / 1980 Raleigh thread.

-Kurt
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Old 11-22-19, 04:30 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I get the feeling that Shimano's R&D budget tends to result in IGH hubs with much more longevity relative to complexity and size. The Nexus 8 seems to have a pretty good track record; I'm surprised that it had to be retired at all - too much wear all around, I take it?

Ironically, I'm going to have to eat my own words, as the X-RD8 on the Gazelle turns out to be dead in fourth and sixth - it'll have to come apart. Will post that in the Dockless Donor / 1980 Raleigh thread.

-Kurt
Too much wear and lack of maintenance on my end. It's a 13 year old daily commuter which gets used in all kinds of weather. These hubs are rated for around 30,000 km but can last a lot longer with proper care and I have been putting between 2,500 - 5,000+ km a year on it.
I have been riding around with it with only partial gears since I lacked time to take it apart or swap the innards. Eventually it simply started slipping in all gears.

I'll take a good look inside and probably keep an eye out for a used or second-hand model so I can do some repairs next spring. But frankly, this bike has priority right now.
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Old 11-29-19, 05:52 PM
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Felt some weird drag in the 5-speed hub so I decided it was a good moment to open up the hub now my girlfriend is out with friends this evening.

First disassembly. Not bad but definitely quite a bit of gunk in the planet cage/sun gear assembly.


After a few rounds in the ultrasonic cleaner. Much better. Look at the color of the water though!



Insides look good too. No wear to be seen.


Lubed the little axles and the sprockets themselves.


This is what happens if you mix up your order reassembling and overthighten. The bearings pop out.


And everything together again.


So what did I end up doing? Basically I replaced some of the bearings (#19) and springs (#14, #18 , #35 ), lubed everything with white lithium grease where needed and put it together again.
One notable thing was a dislodged pawl spring on the gear ring assembly (#14)
You can already feel the wheel spinning much smoother. I could just give it a spin and lay it on top of my extended fingers and it wouldn't twist off and keeps spinning forever.

It just needs a bit more oil inside (about a spoonful) but I was out of oil. That's a job for tomorrow, together with an early test ride!
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Old 11-30-19, 07:09 AM
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JaccoW You did a great job on that hub, but I have to mention that your choice of lubricant leaves much to be desired, brother. White lithium grease is NOT bearing rated, and I cringe when I see people using it. Its a good general purpose grease but its not waterproof, nor is it capable of withstanding high temperatures. I've been a repair machinist for the last 30 years, and I can tell you by experience, that I've repaired more industrial machinery that was dead long before its time by the use of white lithium grease. White lithium grease carries with it a false belief that it is good stuff, but its really quite the opposite. The petroleum grease dries out in a short span of time, leaving the clay in the grease to harden and stop lubricating metal surfaces.

I'd like to recommend Phil Wood grease or Park Tool HPH-1. Both of these are formulated to withstand high pressures, are waterproof, and will promote the best compromise between lubrication and bearing drag.
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Old 11-30-19, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
JaccoW You did a great job on that hub, but I have to mention that your choice of lubricant leaves much to be desired, brother. White lithium grease is NOT bearing rated, and I cringe when I see people using it. Its a good general purpose grease but its not waterproof, nor is it capable of withstanding high temperatures. I've been a repair machinist for the last 30 years, and I can tell you by experience, that I've repaired more industrial machinery that was dead long before its time by the use of white lithium grease. White lithium grease carries with it a false belief that it is good stuff, but its really quite the opposite. The petroleum grease dries out in a short span of time, leaving the clay in the grease to harden and stop lubricating metal surfaces.

I'd like to recommend Phil Wood grease or Park Tool HPH-1. Both of these are formulated to withstand high pressures, are waterproof, and will promote the best compromise between lubrication and bearing drag.
Sturmey-Archer's specified SA103B grease (for hub bearings) is a lithium complex mix, while SA103A (spec'ed for everything else) is straight lithium:
https://www.permaco.com/en-us/dept_52.html

What you say may be true from a mechanical engineering standpoint, but you can't blame Jacco if he's following Sturmey's recommendations, even if Sturmey's recommendations are ill-advised. Plus, if new Sturmey hubs have any operating characteristics that mimic the originals, varying the lubrication just slightly (even to long term advantages) might unexpectedly jam up something else. *cough* AW clutch *cough*

I don't disagree that some lithium greases are poorly formulated, but I also tend to be skeptical of expensive, bicycle-specific greases. This is a niche market, and this stuff is probably purchased in bulk, badged for Phil or Park, and upsold to us suckers. I'd gladly substitute with the marine greases that have widespread acceptance among the mechanics of the bike world and take my chances over supporting an upseller.

Also, there's no such thing as HPH-1; at least, not presently on the market. There's HPG-1. Was that what you had in mind?

-Kurt
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Old 11-30-19, 12:34 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Sturmey-Archer's specified SA103B grease (for hub bearings) is a lithium complex mix, while SA103A (spec'ed for everything else) is straight lithium:
https://www.permaco.com/en-us/dept_52.html

What you say may be true from a mechanical engineering standpoint, but you can't blame Jacco if he's following Sturmey's recommendations, even if Sturmey's recommendations are ill-advised. Plus, if new Sturmey hubs have any operating characteristics that mimic the originals, varying the lubrication just slightly (even to long term advantages) might unexpectedly jam up something else. *cough* AW clutch *cough*

I don't disagree that some lithium greases are poorly formulated, but I also tend to be skeptical of expensive, bicycle-specific greases. This is a niche market, and this stuff is probably purchased in bulk, badged for Phil or Park, and upsold to us suckers. I'd gladly substitute with the marine greases that have widespread acceptance among the mechanics of the bike world and take my chances over supporting an upseller.

Also, there's no such thing as HPH-1; at least, not presently on the market. There's HPG-1. Was that what you had in mind?

-Kurt
Thank you for setting me straight. I did not realize that SA recommended lithium grease, and spoke my mind. I have the exact same IGH hub destined for a project coming up soon, and if I ever need to overhaul it, I'll be using some good grease. My personal go-to greases are SRAM butter for suspensions, Park Tool Polylube 1000 for assembly, and Bel-Ray marine grease for bearings. For lighter applications I use Phil Wood Tenacious Oil. Also, the HPH-1 was a fat-finger-fumble, and I really meant to type HPG-1.
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Old 11-30-19, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Thank you for setting me straight. I did not realize that SA recommended lithium grease, and spoke my mind. I have the exact same IGH hub destined for a project coming up soon, and if I ever need to overhaul it, I'll be using some good grease. My personal go-to greases are SRAM butter for suspensions, Park Tool Polylube 1000 for assembly, and Bel-Ray marine grease for bearings. For lighter applications I use Phil Wood Tenacious Oil. Also, the HPH-1 was a fat-finger-fumble, and I really meant to type HPG-1.
No worries, I was probably a bit harsher than I should have been with that post.

I'm in the same boat with my X-RF8 and will probably find myself in the eternal grease struggle too, soon enough. If I can get replacement bits.

-Kurt
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Old 12-01-19, 07:27 AM
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Rigged up the brakes and put in a placeholder drum-brake front wheel to see how it rides so far. The anwer is; not bad at all. Though the reversed (compared to Shimano) twist shifter is kind of confusing but nothing too bad.
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Old 12-01-19, 09:12 AM
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Good job on overhauling that hub! I did a '77 AW once, it took a lot of cleaning to get all that gunk out!
What product do you normally use in your Ultrasonic cleaner, by the way? I am looking for alternatives to what I normally use.
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Old 12-01-19, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Rigged up the brakes and put in a placeholder drum-brake front wheel to see how it rides so far. The anwer is; not bad at all. Though the reversed (compared to Shimano) twist shifter is kind of confusing but nothing too bad.
Pretty slick. No shifting issues? Gives me hope that I can put the 8-speed back together.

I have so many different IGH bikes at this point that I have to re-learn shifting every time I ride...

-Kurt
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Old 12-01-19, 11:25 AM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by alexnagui View Post
Good job on overhauling that hub! I did a '77 AW once, it took a lot of cleaning to get all that gunk out!
What product do you normally use in your Ultrasonic cleaner, by the way? I am looking for alternatives to what I normally use.
Just hot water, dish soap and some vinegar if necessary. Rinse and repeat a few times if necessary. And if it's really thick just scrub it a little bit and put it back in a couple more times.

What do you use?
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Old 12-01-19, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Just hot water, dish soap and some vinegar if necessary. Rinse and repeat a few times if necessary. And if it's really thick just scrub it a little bit and put it back in a couple more times.

What do you use?
Most of the time, I use Dasty which you can get at Wibra. It's pretty strong so it works like a charm, but I don't think that it's very good for environment. I've tried TICKOPUR R33 which is some special stuff meant for ultrasonic cleaners but I'm not really impressed with it.
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Old 12-01-19, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
What do you use?
Anything that forms a detergent effect is good because all we're doing is emulsifying the grease, right? I like your hot water and dish soap formula. I'll have to try that. I tried bunched of different things, and the one cleaner that works best for me so far is Simple Green 50/50 with water, but its not really keen on aluminium alloys so I need something a little less harsh for that.
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Old 12-01-19, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Pretty slick. No shifting issues? Gives me hope that I can put the 8-speed back together.

I have so many different IGH bikes at this point that I have to re-learn shifting every time I ride...
None so far but I have only tried it for a short lap today. And most of the shifting problems with these hubs are with different shifters AFAIK.

Just take your time and keep the exploded diagram nearby. Or record a video while taking it apart.
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Old 12-01-19, 10:22 PM
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
None so far but I have only tried it for a short lap today. And most of the shifting problems with these hubs are with different shifters AFAIK.

Just take your time and keep the exploded diagram nearby. Or record a video while taking it apart.
Different shifters...from Sturmey? Or mis-matched shifters? Not sure I follow.

I already have the X-RF8 apart. Save for some really small springs, I'd say it is simpler than an AW to tear down (and reassemble - this thing is going to be fairly easy to put back together), and definitely simpler than an FW. It looks brand new inside, except for a sliver of metal...which cannot be traced back to any single part in the hub. That's driving me nuts - what if that's the source of my shifting issues? Where did it come from? What happens if I add another factor to the reassembly and use ATF instead of grease?

Too much to think about this late at night, just before a Monday morning...

You're lucky that the 5-speed treated you so well.

-Kurt
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Old 12-03-19, 08:02 AM
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JaccoW
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Different shifters...from Sturmey? Or mis-matched shifters? Not sure I follow.
Sturmey has a wide variety of shifters for this particular hub. The HSJ958 Trigger shifter, HSJ979 twist shifter, HSJ960 metal Bar-end shifter, HSJ959 metal thumb shifter, HSJ982 metal downtube shifter and the HSJ968 plastic thumb shifter. Apparently all but the first two have sometimes have a tendency to overshift causing the hub to not engage properly. This kills the hub for some people over time. (Disclaimer: This is what I've read on older forum posts and is a generalization. It might not be a problem anymore.)
It's one of the reasons I opted for the twist shifter. The other reason for me is that I like twist shifters in a city environment.

Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
I already have the X-RF8 apart. Save for some really small springs, I'd say it is simpler than an AW to tear down (and reassemble - this thing is going to be fairly easy to put back together), and definitely simpler than an FW. It looks brand new inside, except for a sliver of metal...which cannot be traced back to any single part in the hub. That's driving me nuts - what if that's the source of my shifting issues? Where did it come from? What happens if I add another factor to the reassembly and use ATF instead of grease?
You'll be okay. Just flush it out and reassemble. Worst case scenario you will notice it straight away and you'll have to disassemble everything again. But you will be quicker this time.

In other news;
I found a shop in Europe that has a nice collection of bicycle goodies in Berlin so I ordered some fenders and new handlebars. When talking to another bike crazy colleague (we talked about the Elian cargo bike models) we ended up on the Honjo website and found out they have lightweight tarpaulin mudflaps in various sizes. There is the small, large and extra large version and should be a good amount lighter than leather mudflaps. @non-fixie take note.
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