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Please help a noob

Old 03-13-20, 07:11 AM
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Zombotomy
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Please help a noob

Hello. Recently I tried fixing up an old bike. My friend gave me new rims to use as the old bearings and rim were destroyed. The old rim used a freewheel system. This one uses freehub with cassette. I changed the cassette and had to add a spacer. But the problem is when the wheel is tightened it's super tough to spin because the axle is spinning with the wheel inside the dropouts. How do I fix this? I can't add any pictures. The site won't let me as I haven't made 10 posts ..
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Old 03-13-20, 07:37 AM
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Sounds like a problem with the bearings in the hub. Generally to disassemble hub bearings you need a cone wrench (usually a 15mm for rear hubs) and an open end or combination wrench for the lock nuts - usually a 17mm for rear hubs.

When you take the wheel out of the frame can you turn the axle by hand?

Also, if the axle is turning in the dropouts of the frame, do not turn the wheel any more than necessary to evaluate the problem and remove the wheel - a turning axle will dig in a remove material from the dropouts which can make it difficult to properly secure a wheel.
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Old 03-13-20, 07:38 AM
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Sounds like the rear axle bearing adjustment is now so tight that it overcomes the clamping pressure the axle nuts can provide. Why do I guess a nutted axle? Because when the cones and locknuts are not fully counter tightened against each other and then the wheel is installed and then the axle nuts are turned to tighten the wheel in the frame the axle can spin. This spin can cause one side's cone to either loosen away from the bearings or crush in towards the bearings, depending on which side 's outer nut is being turned. We see this frequently when both the locknuts and cones are not initially "locked" in place and when the person installing the wheel turns one side outer axle nut only. By snugging one nut down till the axle JUST begins to turn and then repeating on the other side, bit by bit one can increase the nuts' tightnesses while keeping the axle stationary. Andy
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Old 03-13-20, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Sounds like the rear axle bearing adjustment is now so tight that it overcomes the clamping pressure the axle nuts can provide. Why do I guess a nutted axle? Because when the cones and locknuts are not fully counter tightened against each other and then the wheel is installed and then the axle nuts are turned to tighten the wheel in the frame the axle can spin. This spin can cause one side's cone to either loosen away from the bearings or crush in towards the bearings, depending on which side 's outer nut is being turned. We see this frequently when both the locknuts and cones are not initially "locked" in place and when the person installing the wheel turns one side outer axle nut only. By snugging one nut down till the axle JUST begins to turn and then repeating on the other side, bit by bit one can increase the nuts' tightnesses while keeping the axle stationary. Andy

Thanks for the help! I'll take it apart tonight and inspect it. If the bearings are still good as I haven't ridden on it. Is there a specific torque spec I can adjust it to?
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Old 03-13-20, 08:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Sounds like the rear axle bearing adjustment is now so tight that it overcomes the clamping pressure the axle nuts can provide. Why do I guess a nutted axle? Because when the cones and locknuts are not fully counter tightened against each other and then the wheel is installed and then the axle nuts are turned to tighten the wheel in the frame the axle can spin. This spin can cause one side's cone to either loosen away from the bearings or crush in towards the bearings, depending on which side 's outer nut is being turned. We see this frequently when both the locknuts and cones are not initially "locked" in place and when the person installing the wheel turns one side outer axle nut only. By snugging one nut down till the axle JUST begins to turn and then repeating on the other side, bit by bit one can increase the nuts' tightnesses while keeping the axle stationary. Andy

Thanks for the help. Do you know if there is a specific torque spec to tighten it to?
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Old 03-13-20, 08:51 AM
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Here are a few of many How-To videos on how to properly adjust your "cup and cone" wheel bearings. If one doesn't work for you just check out the others listed or do a general search. Be patient as it takes a little trial and error at first to get the proper feel for the correct tightness of the cones and locknuts. https://www.youtube.com/results?sear...ing+adjustment

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Old 03-13-20, 08:58 AM
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No. You don't use torque to set the the bearing adjustment - you adjust the position of the cone by hand, using the feel of the bearings as a guide, then tighten the locknut against the cone to hold it in place when you think you have the bearings close to where you want them (no play or looseness, but easy and smooth when turned by hand.

Quick guide:

1. Use a 15mm cone wrench to hold the drive side (DS) cone in place and tighten the locknut into it with a 17mm open end wrench.
2. Hold the non drive side (NDS) cone with the cone wrench and loosen the locknut from the cone
3. Turn the cone by hand until the bearings feel nice and free and smooth
4. Hold the NDS cone with the cone wrench and Tighten the NDS locknut onto the cone
5. Spin the axle by hand to check if the bearings are smooth and without play
6. If play or tightness are felt, repeat steps 2-5. It may take a few tries before you have it perfect.

The advanced level of this procedure is to leave a tiny, almost imperceptible amount of play in the bearings, and tightening the quick release when you install the wheel will remove the play. If you can still feel some play in the bearings when the wheel is mounted in the frame, you need to go back and re-do steps 2-5.

Also, sometimes bearings get tight because the freehub body has worked itself loose from the hub. If the freehub body is loose, no amount of bearing adjustment will get the hub to work properly.
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Old 03-13-20, 09:00 AM
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Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
Sounds like the rear axle bearing adjustment is now so tight that it overcomes the clamping pressure the axle nuts can provide. Why do I guess a nutted axle? Because when the cones and locknuts are not fully counter tightened against each other and then the wheel is installed and then the axle nuts are turned to tighten the wheel in the frame the axle can spin. This spin can cause one side's cone to either loosen away from the bearings or crush in towards the bearings, depending on which side 's outer nut is being turned. We see this frequently when both the locknuts and cones are not initially "locked" in place and when the person installing the wheel turns one side outer axle nut only. By snugging one nut down till the axle JUST begins to turn and then repeating on the other side, bit by bit one can increase the nuts' tightnesses while keeping the axle stationary. Andy
Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier View Post
No. You don't use torque to set the the bearing adjustment - you adjust the position of the cone by hand, using the feel of the bearings as a guide, then tighten the locknut against the cone to hold it in place when you think you have the bearings close to where you want them (no play or looseness, but easy and smooth when turned by hand.

Quick guide:

1. Use a 15mm cone wrench to hold the drive side (DS) cone in place and tighten the locknut into it with a 17mm open end wrench.
2. Hold the non drive side (NDS) cone with the cone wrench and loosen the locknut from the cone
3. Turn the cone by hand until the bearings feel nice and free and smooth
4. Hold the NDS cone with the cone wrench and Tighten the NDS locknut onto the cone
5. Spin the axle by hand to check if the bearings are smooth and without play
6. If play or tightness are felt, repeat steps 2-5. It may take a few tries before you have it perfect.

The advanced level of this procedure is to leave a tiny, almost imperceptible amount of play in the bearings, and tightening the quick release when you install the wheel will remove the play. If you can still feel some play in the bearings when the wheel is mounted in the frame, you need to go back and re-do steps 2-5.

Also, sometimes bearings get tight because the freehub body has worked itself loose from the hub. If the freehub body is loose, no amount of bearing adjustment will get the hub to work properly.

Thank you!!! So easy an idiot can understand. I'll definitely give it a go tonight. I believe I can do it. I use to hear mechanic so it's like car bearings. I'll let you know!
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Old 03-13-20, 10:05 AM
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I'm curious, did you have to spread the chain stays to get the new wheel to install into the dropouts?
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Old 03-13-20, 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted by Thomas15 View Post
I'm curious, did you have to spread the chain stays to get the new wheel to install into the dropouts?
No it dropped right down. But the axle didn't stick out the side. At first the lock ring on the cassette was rubbing on the frame. But I put a spacer. I feel like something may be missing. But I can't add pictures
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Old 03-13-20, 10:48 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombotomy View Post
No it dropped right down. But the axle didn't stick out the side. At first the lock ring on the cassette was rubbing on the frame. But I put a spacer. I feel like something may be missing. But I can't add pictures

Do you know how I can send a picture without a url? The forum won't let me link a dropbox
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Old 03-13-20, 10:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombotomy View Post
No it dropped right down. But the axle didn't stick out the side. At first the lock ring on the cassette was rubbing on the frame. But I put a spacer. I feel like something may be missing. But I can't add pictures
The cone lock nut should protrude a "few" MM past the lock ring.
Something is obviously wrong with the hub spacing on that side.
Look at another bike or 2 and see what I mean.
Is there a brand/model on the hub?
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Old 03-13-20, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
The cone lock nut should protrude a "few" MM past the lock ring.
Something is obviously wrong with the hub spacing on that side.
Look at another bike or 2 and see what I mean.
Is there a brand/model on the hub?

I can check when I get home. There actually is no nut. It uses a quick release system. Without pics it's tough. I don't know the names but I'll try to describe. It does it on both sides where it doesn't spin. The axle which has the hole for the quick release sits in the drop outs and is threaded on the outside. It's just sitting on the threads. And it doesn't pole outside the frame. It sits a couple mm inside the dropouts if anything. After 10 posts I can send pictures.
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Old 03-13-20, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Zombotomy View Post
I can check when I get home. There actually is no nut. It uses a quick release system. Without pics it's tough. I don't know the names but I'll try to describe. It does it on both sides where it doesn't spin. The axle which has the hole for the quick release sits in the drop outs and is threaded on the outside. It's just sitting on the threads. And it doesn't pole outside the frame. It sits a couple mm inside the dropouts if anything. After 10 posts I can send pictures.
It has to be below flush in order to clamp the wheel. Imagine if the axle protruded 1" beyond the DO's. How would it clamp?
The axle typically protrudes 5.5mm beyond the lock nut.
I think you may need to learn the terminology, so look at the pdf. This is unlikely to be your specific hub, thus the request earlier for brand & model of yours. Just in case there is a pdf for it.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf
FH-6500.PDF (44.9 KB, 6 views)
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Old 03-13-20, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
It has to be below flush in order to clamp the wheel. Imagine if the axle protruded 1" beyond the DO's. How would it clamp?
The axle typically protrudes 5.5mm beyond the lock nut.
I think you may need to learn the terminology, so look at the pdf. This is unlikely to be your specific hub, thus the request earlier for brand & model of yours. Just in case there is a pdf for it.

That actually looks almost exactly like the one I have. I'm home in about an hour and will check brand then to help
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Old 03-13-20, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombotomy View Post
That actually looks almost exactly like the one I have. I'm home in about an hour and will check brand then to help
I have 150 Shimano Free Hubs in my incomplete Shimano Free Hub folder that look "almost" exactly like that.
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Old 03-13-20, 01:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Bill Kapaun View Post
It has to be below flush in order to clamp the wheel. Imagine if the axle protruded 1" beyond the DO's. How would it clamp?
The axle typically protrudes 5.5mm beyond the lock nut.
I think you may need to learn the terminology, so look at the pdf. This is unlikely to be your specific hub, thus the request earlier for brand & model of yours. Just in case there is a pdf for it.

Looking at it and taking it apart. There are no marking to tell brand. The hub itself is factory painted white if that helps. But from the pdf pt has no axle spacer. In the drive side it's the freehub and axle. The freehub spins freely. On the NDS it's a rubber cone and locknut. No spacer and nowhere to put a lock wrench.



uPDATe I'm an idiot. And I pulled off the rubber boot

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Old 03-13-20, 02:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Zombotomy View Post
Thank you!!! So easy an idiot can understand. I'll definitely give it a go tonight. I believe I can do it. I use to hear mechanic so it's like car bearings. I'll let you know!

Got my hands on a cone wrench. I removed the lock nut and washer behind but the axle still won't spin at all
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Old 03-13-20, 02:57 PM
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Loosen the cone now. Andy
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Old 03-14-20, 01:00 AM
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If the axel will not spin then a complete disassembly and re-lube is going to be needed. The reason is "Who knows what is in there?" Actually any time someone gives you a wheel and you don't know its history, just take it apart and clean the bearings.

My guess is that the bearing grease has turned to cement because it has not been used for 20 years. Clean everything with solvent and a toothbrush, then inspect the balls and the races for pits and wear. If it looks good fill the space about 50% with grease aand reassemble. This should be done about every year but likely was not done for 20.
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Old 03-14-20, 09:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ChrisAlbertson View Post
If the axel will not spin then a complete disassembly and re-lube is going to be needed. The reason is "Who knows what is in there?" Actually any time someone gives you a wheel and you don't know its history, just take it apart and clean the bearings.

My guess is that the bearing grease has turned to cement because it has not been used for 20 years. Clean everything with solvent and a toothbrush, then inspect the balls and the races for pits and wear. If it looks good fill the space about 50% with grease aand reassemble. This should be done about every year but likely was not done for 20.


Thanks everyone for your patience. I managed to get it apart cleaned and adjusted it and the axle is now good. But I've run into problems on the detailer the bikes frame is just a mongoose deviant 2.6 hopefully I can attach a picture. If you look at the mounting for the derailleur there are 2 empty unused screw holes above it then the detailer is held on with the axle clamp pressure and stops spinning with another screw on it. But there is no screw hole there. I've tried many ways of mounting it and no matter what I do the derailleur doesn't sit right. The metal bracket below the gear rests on the frame. It'll skip gears and won't go down gears at all. I know some of it is adjustment but I can't even get it mounted right. It's the same derailleur and same length chain that was on it a few months ago and it worked.

This pic is of a stock mongoose the second is mine


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Old 03-14-20, 01:02 PM
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Go to Wal mart and loom at how it's mounted on their cheap bikes.
You have a claw type RDER.
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Old 03-14-20, 01:56 PM
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See that hole in the derailleur claw at 6-o'clock? There should be another part bolted through that hole that then sits inside the dropout and stops the derailleur from turning. It looks something like this.​​​​​​​


Cheers
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Old 03-15-20, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
See that hole in the derailleur claw at 6-o'clock? There should be another part bolted through that hole that then sits inside the dropout and stops the derailleur from turning. It looks something like this.


Cheers

Thanks for the pictures. But there is no slot in the dropout for the nut on the other side. The axle wouldn't be level. I am also told there was never another mount screwed to it like the one you showed.





I found a photo of the same bike stock. It doesn't have the piece you showed.

​​​​​​​
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Old 03-15-20, 10:27 AM
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I just went to a local bike shop and talked to a mechanic. He said that style of deraileur is only for bolt on rims not quick release. And that I need to buy a new bolt on rim or pay him to change the axle. Is he correct? Just won't other opinions to make sure I'm not being shafted

He said that the hole above the claw has a screw in it that just sits in the drop out. But after looking at it. It isn't even threaded

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