rcslegacy

I've got a vintage bike with a sturmey archer AW 3 speed hub, and I'm thinking about building up a second set of wheels for it. Mainly because the rise in gravel bike popularity means I can now get some better tires and rims in 650B that are designed to be set up tubeless, with the latest in tire technology as far as puncture resistance and compounds.


On my original wheelset, I've already swapped the steel rims for aluminum ones in 650A (at that time I was thinking I wanted to keep everything as close to original as possible), so those wheels are pretty good and I intend to keep them but I want to be able to easily swap between those ones for road use, and the 2nd set for gravel riding. I was originally going to use an old school AW hub for easy swappability, but I was looking at the sturmey archer site last night and found out they have a version of their new s-rf3 hub which would fit in my dropouts and would use the same indicator chain and shifter as the AW hub, so now I think I may use that instead as wouldn't cost that much extra. but now I'm wondering if there are any newer hubs with more than 3 gears that would be usable. Like if I used one of the new 5 or 7 speed hubs, would it be possible to set up the newer shifter to control the 3 speed hub as well? I wouldn't want to have to change the shifter every time I swap wheels, but it would be nice to have more than 3 speeds. I don't usually need more than that but sometimes it would be good to have another lower gear or two without losing my highest one.

52telecaster

Might ask the guys in the vintage 3 speed thread. My aw hubs are quite narrow.

JaccoW

Why not get a second hub? They are fairly cheap on British eBay.

I have an XL-rd5(w) 5-speed hub that shares a lot of parts with the old AW hub and apparently can be a direct swap.

rcslegacy

Yeah, I guess I will do that too. I wasn't sure if I should start a new thread or put this question there. The vintage bikes with AW hubs had their dropouts spaced to 114mm, and the new 3 speed hub is available in 111mm spacing so that should be fine.

That's what I'm talking about doing. I'm going to build a 2nd set of wheels with a 2nd hub, and still keep my first set of wheels. I'm trying to find out if it's possible to make the 2nd one >3 speeds and still use the same shifter for both hubs, so that I can swap between the two wheelsets on the fly without swapping the shifter and cable.

cudak888 

The non-rotary SRF-3 will shift with any AW-compatible shifter, and vise-versa. You can use a 75-year-old AW shifter on an SRF-3, and a modern Sturmey bar-end indexed shifter with a 75-year-old AW.

Seconded on Jacco's XL-RD5(W) suggestion as an easy way to get more gears without relacing the wheel.

The current hubs are available with 163mm and 148mm axles, but they also have wider cone locknuts than late 1990's and earlier production.

-Kurt

smontanaro 

I wouldn't think so, certainly not easily.Think of an SA hub+shifter as an indexed setup. The detents are all in the trigger. In theory, you could use a 5sp trigger, but there's no stop in the AW hub like the hi/lo limit screws on a rear derailleur.

rhm

Another option is to switch 5 speed guts into your existing AW hub, then you can use the same trigger shifter etc, you just have to add another to shift between the high and low.

Johno59

On this 1902 Sunbeam I put a 3 speed FW on a 4 speed IGH with a 2 speed crank and added a derailleur. Sheldon Brown put a 7 speed FW on a 4 speed IGH with a 3 speed crank set and two derailleurs on a 1948 Raleigh Clubman.
How many gears are u looking to have?

rcslegacy

wow, that is an impressive setup! I found a double chainring on ebay that would fit the bolt pattern on my cranks, so I thought about just using that to widen my gearing but I really don't want to have to add a derailleur and deal with chain slack.

I didn't know it was possible to swap the 5 speed guts into a 3 speed hub, that could be a great option. maybe I'll swap 5-speed guts into my first hub and use a new 5-speed hub for the new build, and not have to worry about shifter compatibility. 5 speeds should definitely be all I need

clubman 

This is not likely at all. The trigger throw is quite large on a 3 speed and it only moves the indicator chain slightly. It's pretty precise engineering.
Really, another frame is all you need to enjoy riding without the fuss of dialing in your gears every time you do a wheel swap, which is what you'd have to do.

Ged117 

I had not realized that this is possible. Would a modern Sturmey bar-end shifter work with my '53 FW four-speed hub? It is inevitable that the original SA '50s flick shifters will soon be too worn out to use in everyday riding - unless one replaces the little spring inside. Perhaps a better solution to preserve these parts for posterity would be to use the bar-end shifter. Have you tried it?

Sorry to derail the thread - I was curious as a guy with two Sturmey hub gear bikes with early 1950s shifters.

cudak888 

It depends - if he sticks with an AW, it's really quick to adjust them - even if the swapped-out wheelset sits in a different place in the drops. Spin on the adjuster, and pull until almost taut, but not quite. That works pretty well for the AW and SRF-3.

They don't make a 4-speed bar-end shifter, only the SLS30 3-speed bar-end. Some DIY'ers may suggest adding a detent - seeing as the factory 4-speed shifter is essentially a 3-speed shifter with an extra index built into it - but if the SLS30 is anything like the Shimano shifter it's cloned from, you won't be able to open it up without destroying it.

Also, the 4-speed return springs are VERY heavy - there's a possibility that even if you could add a detent to the SLS30, it might not be strong enough to keep the hub from shifting back into 2nd.

The 1960's-era FW shifters still show up on eBay occasionally - I wouldn't worry about availability so much as price. When mounted forward and down, they're one of the best shifters I've ever experienced on a North Road bar.

-Kurt

clubman 

But the question is whether a 5-7 or even 8 speed SA shifter will work with an AW. The OP may be the first to ever try or want to do this.

cudak888 

Both the older 8-speed and the current one are rotaries, so the cable detents probably aren't anywhere convenient; probably the same with the 7's.

That said, it'd be really interesting if 1 / 3 / 5 on the current 5-speed shifter has roughly the right spacing to run an AW (or probably safer, an SRF3)'s 1 / 2 / 3.

I think there's already a window - pun not intended - into the answer to this. The DLS30 3-speed trigger shifter works with my non-rotary SRF-3s - and this same shifter body used to be available for 5-speeds (DLS50 or DLS52 - different detents, if the lettering positioning is an indication). Perhaps the DLS50 might work?

FYI, Sturmey no longer lists the DLS50 or 52 on their site. The DLS50 is listed as being compatible with the S-RF5 - a non-rotary hub which Sturmey no longer catalogs.

DLS30:

DLS50:


DLS52 - rebadged as the S50(W):





If the number markings are any indication (keep in mind that my DLS30 never puts the orange mark under the number correctly when shifting, but the movement is concurrent with the spacing of the numbers themselves), the DLS50 might run a 3-speed AW/SRF-3 - but first gear may be questionable.

-Kurt

rcslegacy

I was just looking into their 4 speed hubs, idk why that wasn't even on my radar before now but I think a FW with the right sized cog might be just what I need. It'll give me an extra lower gear for going uphill, and I won't need to change anything else because I already have the "3 or 4 speed" shifter on the bike. More speeds would still be cool but I'll probably keep it simple and just use an FW from ebay.

now I need to look into their newer 4 speed hubs, if they have any, and see if there would be any benefits to using one of those instead and if they would be equally compatible....

clubman 

FW's are a nice reliable hub, not unlike AW's except made in much smaller numbers.

rcslegacy

good to know. I think I'll buy an FW off ebay tonight.

Looks like their new x-rfw has slightly wider gearing, which is good, and the spacing is close enough to work, but it has a totally different shifting mechanism so it's the FW FTW

cudak888 

Do make sure your FW comes with the unique indicator chain and is sold as "complete." They can be a handful if they need parts.

If you don't mind the really strong first gear spring, you'll probably find your new favorite IGH hub. I have an FG on my '51 Raleigh Sports and wouldn't want anything but.

-Kurt

rcslegacy

I think I'll get two of these - https://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Stu...H/143530965562

I assume that I can swap the guts from one of those into my old AW shell if I want to?

cudak888 

The guts swap right over. Beware - no indicator chain on the one in the picture!

-Kurt

rhm

I have had mixed results with FW hubs. I had one that worked flawlessly, so I know how great they can be. I had another that I could never get adjusted right. Most were somewhere between those, reliable 99% of the time, which sounds good but I found not good enough.

The problem with FW hubs is usually that the trigger shifter is worn out, so it won't hold the hub in B (bottom) gear.

Don't let me discourage you, though. An FW hub is easy to convert to a five speed, which (in my experience) is more reliable and easier to deal with, though you do need two shifters.

rcslegacy

oh crap, I guess those won't work. Thanks for pointing that out! I don't know what the 4 speed indicator looks like but the description on that auction says they're in working order so I assumed they had all the necessary parts. Even if I manage to find one that has an indicator, I don't want to end up eventually having problems trying to find parts for it

so.... about swapping 5 speed guts into an AW.... are all of the 5 speed parts readily available still?

cudak888 

Check with the seller to make sure, just in case. Might luck out!

See if you can get a XL-RD5(W) if you want to try the 5-speed route.

-Kurt

Ged117 

I've been thinking of picking up 1 or 2 of those '60s four-speed shifters, and keeping my eye out for another FW for parts. Though, the inside bits of mine had almost no wear despite being 67 years old. I usually read this post over at UK cycling forum for inspiration about these Sturmey Archer hub gears. The guy has been riding his FW / S5 conversion for 30 years and has serviced it in the usual way two or three times, and replaced 1 axle.

Thirty Years with a Sturmey Gear. - Cycling UK Forum

Ged117 

It certainly took me a while to get my FW adjusted correctly, and to teach myself good shifting technique, but it is working well now. I do hold the shifter trigger in place when using Bottom gear, though - I don't trust it to hold that tough return spring when I'm out of the saddle climbing. Since that extra gear is so useful on hills, having to hold it doesn't bother me. With an AW, I would be walking the bike (which is not a bad thing when I've got my Superbe, it just feels weird with a road bike).