Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

Carbon wheels? Whatís the ride and weight advantage

Notices
Road Cycling ďIt is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.Ē -- Ernest Hemingway

Carbon wheels? Whatís the ride and weight advantage

Old 06-24-20, 02:16 PM
  #26  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Itís not just about the amount of flex. Itís also about how much energy gets lost in the flex. The alloy rims feel better for that reason. Wheels do matter:

Iím not sure how you could possibly argue that wheel construction doesnít affect ride feel whatsoever.
The flex is lateral, so what does that matter for road feel? I mean, yeah, I certainly don't want my wheels flexing and hitting my brake pads when I sprint or something, but that doesn't change the feel of my bike in any way.

It's pretty easy.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:17 PM
  #27  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
The flex is lateral, so what does that matter for road feel? I mean, yeah, I certainly don't want my wheels flexing and hitting my brake pads when I sprint or something, but that doesn't change the feel of my bike in any way.

It's pretty easy.
You didnít even look at the video. Please do. Responsiveness is a big deal, and itís one of a few reasons people spend big bucks on bikes.
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:18 PM
  #28  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
You didn’t even look at the video. Please do. Responsiveness is a big deal, and it’s one of a few reasons people spend big bucks on bikes.
And you apparently didn't read the question to which I was responding. Lateral flex has nothing to do with what was asked or what I responded to.

Bike responsiveness. Not wheel responsiveness. Whatever that is.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:20 PM
  #29  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by kosmo886 View Post
What about ride feel?
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Wheels don't change the feel.
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
And you apparently didn't read the question to which I was responding. Lateral flex has nothing to do with what was asked or what I responded to.
How does lateral flex not affect ride feel?
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:21 PM
  #30  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
How does lateral flex not affect ride feel?
Because it only occurs under significant torque?
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:22 PM
  #31  
bbbean 
Senior Member
 
bbbean's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Missouri
Posts: 2,295

Bikes: Giant Propel, Cannondale SuperX, Univega Alpina Ultima

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 459 Post(s)
Liked 147 Times in 96 Posts
[QUOTE=kosmo886;21548822Whatís the advantage of going with carbon wheels? [/QUOTE]

Lighter for the same profile, easier to manufacture for a specific shape, arguably stronger than steel or aluminum.
__________________

Formerly fastest rider in the grupetto, currently slowest guy in the peloton

bbbean is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:25 PM
  #32  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Because it only occurs under significant torque?
Which is easily achieved when you stand up on the bike and sway it side to side.

Whatís your point here? That there is absolutely no perceptible difference in feel between wheels? You really think people canít feel a wheel flexing when they throw a bike around? Iím saying you can, and that video shows why. I am far from the only person in the world who thinks so. Why do you think Lightweight wheels sell for 5 grand despite being ugly as sin?
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:33 PM
  #33  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Which is easily achieved when you stand up on the bike and sway it side to side.

Whatís your point here? That there is absolutely no perceptible difference in feel between wheels? You really think people canít feel a wheel flexing when they throw a bike around? Iím saying you can, and that video shows why. I am far from the only person in the world who thinks so. Why do you think Lightweight wheels sell for 5 grand despite being ugly as sin?
My point? I made my point in my first reply.

A better question would be, what's the point of your irrelevant tangent that doesn't address my reply nor the OP?
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:37 PM
  #34  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
My point? I made my point in my first reply.

A better question would be, what's the point of your irrelevant tangent that doesn't address my reply nor the OP?
I must be missing something. What is your definition of ďride feelĒ? Mine is ďthe things you feel when ridingĒ. OP asked about the difference in ride feel between carbon and alloy wheels.

You say there is no difference in ride feel.

I say there is a difference in ride feel.

And explained why, and I uploaded my source. And all you have is a bunch of weirdly hostile remarks that seem willfully ignorant. I donít understand why youíre doing this. Please explain where I went wrong.
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:40 PM
  #35  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
I must be missing something. What is your definition of “ride feel”? Mine is “the things you feel when riding”. OP asked about the difference in ride feel between carbon and alloy wheels.

You say there is no difference in ride feel.

I say there is a difference in ride feel.

And explained why, and I uploaded my source. And all you have is a bunch of weirdly hostile remarks that seem willfully ignorant. I don’t understand why you’re doing this. Please explain where I went wrong.
Ride feel is how the bike rides. Not how much your wheels flex when you apply significant torque.

You went wrong in thinking that you having flexy aluminum wheels has anything to do with my response. And you went wrong in thinking that I somehow owe you some in depth explanation of my response to a post that wasn't yours. If you don't understand my posts, then stop responding to them and your bewilderment will alleviate itself.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:47 PM
  #36  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Ride feel is how the bike rides. Not how much your wheels flex when you apply significant torque.

You went wrong in thinking that you having flexy aluminum wheels has anything to do with my response.
Yes. My bike rides more sluggishly uphill with deep carbon rims. I feel that. Thatís ride feel. This thread is specifically about wheels. OP has alloy wheels and is thinking about getting carbon wheels. So Iím sharing my experience and opinion about that upgrade.

That opinion differs from yours, does it not? Or do you now agree that different wheels have different feel? Is that somehow completely irrelevant to the discussion of ride feel when talking about a wheel upgrade?

Youíre being deliberately obtuse at this point, so Iím done. You have a weird way of dealing with simple disagreements. You couldnít actually refute my point about how wheels do affect ride feel, so youíre spouting all sorts of nonsense for god knows what reason. Good luck with that.
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 02:51 PM
  #37  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 3,441

Bikes: Felt AR

Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2015 Post(s)
Liked 519 Times in 251 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Yes. My bike rides more sluggishly uphill with deep carbon rims. I feel that. That’s ride feel. This thread is specifically about wheels. OP has alloy wheels and is thinking about getting carbon wheels. So I’m sharing my experience and opinion about that upgrade.

That opinion differs from yours, does it not? Or do you now agree that different wheels have different feel? Is that somehow completely irrelevant to the discussion of ride feel when talking about a wheel upgrade?

You’re being deliberately obtuse at this point, so I’m done. You have a weird way of dealing with simple disagreements. You couldn’t actually refute my point about how wheels do affect ride feel, so you’re spouting all sorts of nonsense for god knows what reason. Good luck with that.
No, you're not. You're starting an argument about something that was never even addressed.

You mean I have a way of giving succinct responses to irrelevant, misguided posts that then attribute false pejoratives to said responses? A bit circular there, but okay. It'is not like you're not dropping fallacies in each successive post, anyways. Like I said, your confusion can be easily alleviated. Hope it soon is.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 03:12 PM
  #38  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,981
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 190 Times in 114 Posts
Originally Posted by kosmo886 View Post
I need a set of road wheels/tires for my Cannondale Topstone Carbon. Whatís the advantage of going with carbon wheels? Iíve found it very hard to compare wheelset weights. How much weight advantage is there? What about ride feel? Any suggested wheels that donít break the bank?
Not real clear about the definition of ride feel, but deeper section carbon wheels can be a little more difficult to handle in side winds. Deeper section wheels also can be slower on steeper climbs where the speed is in the single digits.
colnago62 is offline  
Likes For colnago62:
Old 06-24-20, 04:17 PM
  #39  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,170
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,244 Times in 655 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
the WI freehub body is made of ti, which is cool.
I actually think that is their biggest flaw. Mine is just chewed to hell, and the lockring thread is starting to strip. (Lock-ring torqued to 40 N x m with calibrated Park Tool torque wrench.)

I would recommend Chris King. I haven't had this issue with the steel freehub body.

Last edited by wgscott; 06-25-20 at 06:43 PM.
wgscott is offline  
Likes For wgscott:
Old 06-24-20, 07:41 PM
  #40  
Koyote
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Posts: 1,698
Mentioned: 15 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 923 Post(s)
Liked 806 Times in 398 Posts
Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I actually think that is their biggest flaw. Mine is just chewed to hell, and the lockring thread is starting to strip.

Get Chris King.
Yikes. Good to know. Thanks. Hopefully they will replace it under warranty?

fwiw, I have a 17-year old Dura Ace hub with a ti freehub shell, and it's still in good shape.
Koyote is online now  
Likes For Koyote:
Old 06-24-20, 09:04 PM
  #41  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,170
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,244 Times in 655 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Yikes. Good to know. Thanks. Hopefully they will replace it under warranty?

fwiw, I have a 17-year old Dura Ace hub with a ti freehub shell, and it's still in good shape.
It's out of warranty. I have two sets of WI hubs. The other one has a Crampy freehub. So far it is fine. I think the old Shimano design invites problems. A non-steel freehub and an ape like me only makes it worse.

Today I forgot my 1.3 lb saddle bag with tools, tube, etc. I noticed absolutely no difference whatsoever climbing 3,000 ft. Saving weight on the freehub just seems silly.

Last edited by wgscott; 06-24-20 at 09:15 PM.
wgscott is offline  
Old 06-24-20, 09:16 PM
  #42  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,203
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4250 Post(s)
Liked 1,247 Times in 712 Posts
Originally Posted by Koyote View Post
Yikes. Good to know. Thanks. Hopefully they will replace it under warranty?

fwiw, I have a 17-year old Dura Ace hub with a ti freehub shell, and it's still in good shape.
Ti freehub bodies are fine, unless you get careless and under-torque the lockring.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 06-25-20, 07:01 AM
  #43  
bet1216
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Yes. My bike rides more sluggishly uphill with deep carbon rims. I feel that. Thatís ride feel. This thread is specifically about wheels. OP has alloy wheels and is thinking about getting carbon wheels. So Iím sharing my experience and opinion about that upgrade.
I think it is important to qualify comparisons when discussing statements like sluggish uphill with deep carbon rims. Compared to what? For example I a set of shallow aluminum Mavic Askium's that came with a bike with some middle of the road tires and cheap butyl tubes (now just collecting dust on my wall because I don't ride them at all anymore). However, I did ride them a few times. I also have a set of Zipp 404's with latex tubes and Conti 5000 tires. The Zipps are extremely more responsive than the Mavics. The Aluminum wheels are the sluggish wheels when compared to the Zipps. The Zipp combo weights 300-400 grams lighter too. The Zipp hubs roll better, the latex and conti 5000 also roll better. The zipps at 58mm depth fly up hills and a significantly better "ride quality" compared to the shallow aluminum rims. However, that doesn't necessarily hold true for all wheels. Back in the day I had set of Mavic Helium aluminum wheels that rolled very nice and also were great climbers. Not the most robust wheel though. I would take the 404's over them any day as an all rounder.
bet1216 is offline  
Old 06-25-20, 07:09 AM
  #44  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by bet1216 View Post
I think it is important to qualify comparisons when discussing statements like sluggish uphill with deep carbon rims. Compared to what?

The Zipps are extremely more responsive than the Mavics. The Aluminum wheels are the sluggish wheels when compared to the Zipps. The Zipp combo weights 300-400 grams lighter too. The Zipp hubs roll better, the latex and conti 5000 also roll better.
Right. I think my alloy wheelset and carbon wheels are about the same weight. This is with the same tires, same tubes. Same number of spokes too. Both have Sapim CX-ray spokes in the back. But my carbon rims are LB, which probably isnít as nice as Zipp 404s. I wouldnít know.
smashndash is offline  
Old 06-25-20, 08:51 PM
  #45  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,981
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 190 Times in 114 Posts
Originally Posted by bet1216 View Post
I think it is important to qualify comparisons when discussing statements like sluggish uphill with deep carbon rims. Compared to what? For example I a set of shallow aluminum Mavic Askium's that came with a bike with some middle of the road tires and cheap butyl tubes (now just collecting dust on my wall because I don't ride them at all anymore). However, I did ride them a few times. I also have a set of Zipp 404's with latex tubes and Conti 5000 tires. The Zipps are extremely more responsive than the Mavics. The Aluminum wheels are the sluggish wheels when compared to the Zipps. The Zipp combo weights 300-400 grams lighter too. The Zipp hubs roll better, the latex and conti 5000 also roll better. The zipps at 58mm depth fly up hills and a significantly better "ride quality" compared to the shallow aluminum rims. However, that doesn't necessarily hold true for all wheels. Back in the day I had set of Mavic Helium aluminum wheels that rolled very nice and also were great climbers. Not the most robust wheel though. I would take the 404's over them any day as an all rounder.

I donít really consider 404ís deep carbon wheels. I feel like they are a good sweet spot in terms of depth and weight. I have an 808 wheelset and a Boyd 90mm wheelset that I use on the velodrome. I consider those deep carbon. Depth like that is perfect for the track because mass start events always begin at about 15mph or more and the wind issues are not as severe. I couldnít imagine climbing with either set. Compared to wheels in the 50mm range, they are boat anchors in terms of weight.

Last edited by colnago62; 06-25-20 at 08:57 PM.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 06-25-20, 09:17 PM
  #46  
bet1216
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2019
Posts: 12
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
I donít really consider 404ís deep carbon wheels. I feel like they are a good sweet spot in terms of depth and weight. I have an 808 wheelset and a Boyd 90mm wheelset that I use on the velodrome. I consider those deep carbon. Depth like that is perfect for the track because mass start events always begin at about 15mph or more and the wind issues are not as severe. I couldnít imagine climbing with either set. Compared to wheels in the 50mm range, they are boat anchors in terms of weight.
I agree if you going to compare it to something like an 808. I have an 808 rear for my TT bike and I guess I really don't consider it an option for a road bike under general riding conditions. I don't know anyone that rides something like an 808 on anything except time trialing and track. The 808 is not a fun wheel on big climbs that is for sure (well actually neither is a TT bike ).
bet1216 is offline  
Likes For bet1216:
Old 06-26-20, 01:18 AM
  #47  
colnago62
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 1,981
Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 526 Post(s)
Liked 190 Times in 114 Posts
Originally Posted by bet1216 View Post
I agree if you going to compare it to something like an 808. I have an 808 rear for my TT bike and I guess I really don't consider it an option for a road bike under general riding conditions. I don't know anyone that rides something like an 808 on anything except time trialing and track. The 808 is not a fun wheel on big climbs that is for sure (well actually neither is a TT bike ).
I have seen crit. specialists ride them on fast open courses. I would hate to have to accelerate them on a tight course.
colnago62 is offline  
Old 06-26-20, 01:33 AM
  #48  
trekmogul 
Senior Member
 
trekmogul's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NW Ohio
Posts: 1,382

Bikes: Salsa Beargrease XX1, Trek Eqnuinox 9.9 SSL, Trek Madone 6.9 ,Trek District Carbon, Trek Boone7, Trek Fuel EX9.0,Trek Fuel 9.5, Trek Rumblefish Pro, Trek Remedy 9.9, Trek Equinox7, Trek District Belt

Mentioned: 40 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 544 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 24 Posts
Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
The advantage is that they look ******' badass.
sure have to agree with that....
__________________
Trek Fuel EX9.0 Trek Fuel EX9.5 Trek Equinox 9.9SSL TTX Trek Madone 6.9 Pro Red Project One, Trek Boone 7, Trek Rumblefish Pro, Trek Remedy 9.9, Trek Carbon District
trekmogul is offline  
Old 06-27-20, 10:49 AM
  #49  
upthywazzoo 
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Chicago
Posts: 525

Bikes: 1984 Trek 770, 2001 Lemond Zurich

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 94 Post(s)
Liked 44 Times in 28 Posts
Originally Posted by smashndash View Post
Right. I think my alloy wheelset and carbon wheels are about the same weight. This is with the same tires, same tubes. Same number of spokes too. Both have Sapim CX-ray spokes in the back. But my carbon rims are LB, which probably isn’t as nice as Zipp 404s. I wouldn’t know.
Curious about this. Any other differences besides material? Flange distance? Lacing pattern?

Going from some fancy (to me, anyway) handbuilt aluminum wheels with 8:16 lacing on a wide hub to the LB AR45 (pretty sure it's 2x?), I felt like I really noticed the difference in tires/tire width more than anything else.

Last edited by upthywazzoo; 06-27-20 at 10:53 AM.
upthywazzoo is offline  
Old 06-27-20, 11:12 AM
  #50  
smashndash
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Posts: 977

Bikes: 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp

Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 584 Post(s)
Liked 162 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by upthywazzoo View Post
Curious about this. Any other differences besides material? Flange distance? Lacing pattern?

Going from some fancy (to me, anyway) handbuilt aluminum wheels with 8:16 lacing on a wide hub to the LB AR45 (pretty sure it's 2x?), I felt like I really noticed the difference in tires/tire width more than anything else.
Radial front, 2x rear on both wheels. The DT350 hubs on my LB have a slightly narrower flange width, specifically on the NDS side. Probably to keep the tension higher on the NDS side. So that could potentially be a reason why. But I highly doubt that the lauded 350 hub would feel that much worse than a cheapo bitex RAR12. Initially I thought it was the bearing seals, but the feeling never went away. Felt like I was suffocating uphill. Mine are the AR56 btw

Itís less about material and more about depth IMO. The deeper the rim, the bigger the ďlever armĒ that is acting upon the hinge point (the spoke/rim intersection) and the stiffer the rim needs to be to compensate. The AR56 is insanely light for how deep and wide it is, so Iím not super surprised.

Last edited by smashndash; 06-27-20 at 11:16 AM.
smashndash is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.