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How long are we going to continue to play like we can stop this?

Old 07-06-20, 08:21 AM
  #126  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
>

france > For many migrants still camped out in Calais and Dunkirk, the coronavirus pandemic has exacerbated an already dire situation. Supermarkets are reportedly turning them away and the police are removing their tents.

the mideast> In the oil-rich Persian Gulf states, foreign workers face high risks, low wages and exploitation. The COVID-19 outbreak is a health crisis they can't afford, and authorities and employers are providing little support.

germany> At least 70 people at a refugee home near Bonn have tested positive for COVID-19. News of the outbreak prompted calls for better protection for asylum-seekers and more testing at the often crowded facilities

>>> as for the US any response is hampered by a for profit system which monetizes individual treatment compared to socialized health care so mrMinn i wasn't playing the race(trump) card i was pointing out that COVID will continue to spread despite pockets of flattened curves AND that in regions ( island nations or remote areas) where there is a semblance of COVID understanding & control there will be a xenophobic response to outsiders and that this xenophobia will increase with time because as the COVID rages elsewhere the need to isolate will become stronger & more militant at every level . all this begs for a vaccine or trump's miracle and lacking one or the other the quality of life in the developed world will be radically degraded.
Now I get wgscott 's point.

You aren't capable of distinguishing anecdote from trend and you don't understand numbers.
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Old 07-06-20, 08:25 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
How weird what came out in the news today about the plague, eh? HOW could you have known?
...I'm heavily involved in faking the news.

Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
Aside, this thread took off in a whole new area that I ain't touching with a 10 footer.
...the Black Plague. Hmmmm.
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Old 07-06-20, 08:27 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
With survival in air and surfaces like this thing has, with the inability of nearly all masks people wear to actually filter out the virus, it's hard to say many of the steps actually do much. Let alone make things markedly "less bad."

Not that those things shouldn't be attempted. But it'd be far better if steps promoted and done actually could be shown to matter. Short of not being around others and ceasing all contact with stuff people have touched, it's hard to keep this thing away from people. And without filtering that actually captures this virus, it's hard to fail to transmit it into the surrounding air and onto surrounding surfaces.
For the nth time, maks don't have to be perfect to reduce transmission. If you want a personal guarantee that a mask will keep you safe, then yes, they have problems. If you take a societal view, they reduce the transmission odds, and that keeps the virus numbers way down. So it's actually easy to say - masks make a big difference.
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Old 07-06-20, 08:38 AM
  #129  
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Maybe this pandemic is the planet's way of conducting an intelligence test. Those societies that respond correctly to stem infections do well, and those who do not respond correctly to stem infections do poorly.

I have a dental appointment in about two weeks. The dentists office let me know that their office will be open on that date. So as not to spread possible infection, although I have no symptoms, I thought it a good idea to get tested. I went to two medical offices, one a testing lab, and no testing was being conducted. Bristol and nearby environs are small towns but this is not the boonies. I would suggest that this situation is incorrect if we are to stem the infection rate. What we actually see is an increasing rate of infection nationally. Stupid is as stupid does.
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Old 07-06-20, 09:37 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by Clyde1820 View Post
Have done. Plenty has been written.

Point was simply that this thing travels easily. Via air, via aerosol/droplets. It deposits on surfaces. And while localized "hot spot" contact tracing and isolation can be done, after the fact once it's been contracted, there's simply no way to ensure (with current capabilities and technologies) that it won't continue to transmit to others close by. About the only sure-fire thing to keep a given infected person from infecting others has been: complete isolation from others.

Humans being what they are, that's only going to work in some societies, where all or nearly all are prepared to isolate from contact in that way. All it takes is one, incubating and transmitting, for dozens or more to get infected. And since this thing can occur without symptoms, it's often hard or impossible to "contact trace" with certainty. Particularly if people are randomly going here and there, many refusing (or failing) to carry traceable-tech (ie, "smart" phones) on them so their every move gets known.

Beyond all of that, too, is the fact that very few of whole populations have actually been tested. Which is to say that it's impossible to actually know how widespread this thing's gotten in 6+ months' of transmission. Likely, vastly further than merely the next house, next county, next "group home" or "gathering spot." And we might never know, given most don't get really ill, let alone show verifiable and obvious symptoms.

Sure, do what we can. And contact-trace after the fact, hoping we identify each individual in a myriad-of-contacts scenario. Given this thing is airborne, it's all but certain to get out of people's homes in some manner, and/or transmit to the next person via some surface.

Haven't heard of a catch-all, foolproof method of halting a transmission, when it's unclear if someone's incubating, when it's unclear there are any symptoms, when it's uncertain if people in the near area will have tracking devices (phones) on them that will help identify others who were there at the same time. To my knowledge, none has yet been devised, helpful though some steps have been to corral known hot spots and known transmissions.
Have a look at what Australia is doing in response to the "outbreak" in Melbourne. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-53303317
They have a few hunred cases and this is the response they mount. Here in Minnesota (not considered a hotspot in the US, just a normal state), we have about the same number of people as Melbourne ~5M and about 500 cases a day, and all we can do is shrug.
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Old 07-06-20, 10:02 AM
  #131  
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Bubba and Bubbette is the reason Texas has no covid 19 cases.
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Old 07-06-20, 10:19 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
Now I get wgscott 's point.

You aren't capable of distinguishing anecdote from trend and you don't understand numbers.
rather than parse definitions i ask that you only set aside what you think should happen for what is REALLY happening. YOU & WG need look no farther than the sports page.the NBA is composed of the best young & healthies in US and is trying to reopen. NBA teams are in artificially controlled environments having ALL NECESSITIES DELIVERED & SANITIZED & with the best testing & tracing & isolation available yet NBA teams are confronted with rampant outbreaks among players & staff. the same is true for MLB & COLLEGE FOOTBALL & the NFL. these may be anecdotal to you & WG but how can you deny the implications presented by the sports world and rationalize that a few ebb & flow numbers indicate COVID manageability on a mass scale. each one of the NBA et al outbreaks is a dire warning that even among limited numbers of the healthiest people in isolated & controlled settings coupled with optimum protocols COVID can & will invade & spread. AND just for you only > crack pot knows what your stats say and mean BUT crack pot aint stupid enough to think that every QUACK is a duck BTW the ASTROs canceled practice today
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Old 07-06-20, 10:29 AM
  #133  
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...using sports as your go to example kind of precludes most of the concepts inherent in social distancing, don't you think ?
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Old 07-06-20, 10:32 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
Bubba and Bubbette is the reason Texas has no covid 19 cases.
...I want to send all the California Bubba's to Texas. That way we can confine and quarantine them all in one place.
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Old 07-06-20, 10:34 AM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
crack pot knows what your stats say and mean BUT crack pot aint stupid enough to think that every QUACK is a duck
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Old 07-06-20, 10:53 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...using sports as your go to example kind of precludes most of the concepts inherent in social distancing, don't you think ?
the point is these are extremely isolated "communities" with daily testing and optimum health care BUT if you want to go there how do foresee any chance of a socially distanced fire department functioning over a 6 month period ??? all im saying is that false prophets speak stats & wishful abstractions whereas a measured geographic forecast is BAD > REAL BAD > GETTING WORSER > WORSE > HORRIBLE > CATASTROPHIC > DYSTOPIAN > ??? hell maybe im just relabeling the general consensus but isolation plays tricks on you and some of these dreamers keep thinking vaccines and or substantive relief is only a year or so away AND that card board cutouts in the stands will make a team play harder
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Old 07-06-20, 10:59 AM
  #137  
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So why can this be done in the whole country of Taiwan, but not on an NBA basketball team?
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Old 07-06-20, 10:59 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...I want to send all the California Bubba's to Texas. That way we can confine and quarantine them all in one place.
Ok then they get sent to South Dakota.
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Old 07-06-20, 11:06 AM
  #139  
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...I was just talking to my wife about this year's wildland fire season, and how difficult it will be. They already shut down all the prisoner crews from the prisons that have had Covid outbreaks. (That is a significant resource in this state). And I described to her roughly how a big fire camp is run, so yes, that's gonna be a source of spread without question. Regardless, the bulk of the American population does have access to the same non pharmaceutical control measures that have been used since January around the world to slow and in many cases control this pandemic disease outbreak.

Will it be around for a long time ? Sure it will. The point is that this thread is based upon a false premise...that somehow the idea we can't get rid of it means we might as well let it run it's natural course. It's an idea that really doesn't merit all this discussion at this point in the pandemic, because it's demonstrably untrue.

Calling up examples of certain select groups or activities that do not lend themselves to control measures is not an argument that they don't work. It's just more poppycock in the same vein as "look at all those car accident deaths."
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Old 07-06-20, 11:08 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
So why can this be done in the whole country of Taiwan, but not on an NBA basketball team?
...they don't do bump and run offense moves in Taiwan ?
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Old 07-06-20, 11:25 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
So why can this be done in the whole country of Taiwan, but not on an NBA basketball team?
beats me, it's just another chinese puzzle, i was never good at GO either as for TAIWAN i could guess that it is a very utilitarian & ordered island society that can effectively isolate its daily culture from outside contacts & regiment its inhabitants with forced social controls and the KNICKS are a dumpster fire
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Old 07-06-20, 12:17 PM
  #142  
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The NFL and NBA should take lessons from the industry that is back to work and has established rules and routines to keep workers safe. The sex industry. (They've already been thorough this once before with AIDS. The idea that if one person doesn't walk the line, people die isn't lost on them. (Yes, AIDS is now "under control" but in the early days, many in that industry died.)

The caveat for the NFL/NBA is that, to do this, the workers, ie those highly paid athletes, have to give up the notion of "freedom"; that what they do off the court is life and death for their teammates, opponents and the sport. Living a life of quarantine, wearing masks all the time in public outside the arena, going to different cities and going as a team from bus to (yes very posh) shelter and straight to the arena and back. Tough on for a man high on making millions and being the public face of a sport. But really, can't a man making those millions suck it up to keep a job many would die for?

And masks - they aren't for us. They are for everybody else. It is well established that except for the best (the N95s and better) a high dosage will get us. But, they greatly reduce the water droplets and particles we exhale and sneeze and make the environment far safer for others. This had been shown repeatedly, both through tests and in massive experiments involving whole countries.

I"d like to see the sports franchises get back to work and demonstrate for the rest of us how to function in this new world. Do they have the discipline to do it? Do we? "Life. liberty and the pursuit of happiness ..." Funny how they put the word "life" first. I guess we have to ask ourselves if it is really worth that much.

Ben
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Old 07-06-20, 12:20 PM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
rather than parse definitions i ask that you only set aside what you think should happen for what is REALLY happening. YOU & WG need look no farther than the sports page.the NBA is composed of the best young & healthies in US and is trying to reopen. NBA teams are in artificially controlled environments having ALL NECESSITIES DELIVERED & SANITIZED & with the best testing & tracing & isolation available yet NBA teams are confronted with rampant outbreaks among players & staff. the same is true for MLB & COLLEGE FOOTBALL & the NFL. these may be anecdotal to you & WG but how can you deny the implications presented by the sports world and rationalize that a few ebb & flow numbers indicate COVID manageability on a mass scale. each one of the NBA et al outbreaks is a dire warning that even among limited numbers of the healthiest people in isolated & controlled settings coupled with optimum protocols COVID can & will invade & spread. AND just for you only > crack pot knows what your stats say and mean BUT crack pot aint stupid enough to think that every QUACK is a duck BTW the ASTROs canceled practice today
No further point. You and reality are at skew angles. I won't waste more of my time trying to reason with you.
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Old 07-06-20, 01:13 PM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
.
...I was just talking to my wife about this year's wildland fire season, and how difficult it will be. They already shut down all the prisoner crews from the prisons that have had Covid outbreaks. (That is a significant resource in this state). And I described to her roughly how a big fire camp is run, so yes, that's gonna be a source of spread without question. Regardless, the bulk of the American population does have access to the same non pharmaceutical control measures that have been used since January around the world to slow and in many cases control this pandemic disease outbreak.

Will it be around for a long time ? Sure it will. The point is that this thread is based upon a false premise...that somehow the idea we can't get rid of it means we might as well let it run it's natural course. It's an idea that really doesn't merit all this discussion at this point in the pandemic, because it's demonstrably untrue.

Calling up examples of certain select groups or activities that do not lend themselves to control measures is not an argument that they don't work. It's just more poppycock in the same vein as "look at all those car accident deaths."
> remember the 55mph speed limit during the carter gas "crisis" > STATISTICALLY 55mph saved gas & lives & only added a few hrs to 500 ml+ trips > pretty benign BUT ameriKa did not want to slow down then or now. no matter the societal benefit, the ME FIRST BENEFIT($) has always prevailed in ameriKa so i think that this thread correctly identifies the problem that any ameriKan COVID containment is undermined by the very nature of our ME FIRST culture. a ME 1st culture will never allow the time for any "voluntary" containment program to imbed. for america's sake i HOPE IM WRONG but history & trump are on my side. ....... A COORDINATED & MANDATED FEDERALLY IMPOSED COVID POLICY IS NOT ATTAINABLE UNTIL AN OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF AMERICANS DEMAND IT IN A WAY AS DRAMATIC AS THE BLM PROTESTS
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Old 07-06-20, 01:51 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
...so i think that this thread correctly identifies the problem that any ameriKan COVID containment is undermined by the very nature of our ME FIRST culture. a ME 1st culture will never allow the time for any "voluntary" containment program to imbed....
...we must be reading different threads. Here is the first post in the one on my computer.

Originally Posted by Juan Foote View Post
Here is man pretending like we can control "nature"**. This bug is out. It's mutating. It appears that all we are doing by running around with masks is setting ourselves a future pandemic reoccurrence.

I know there are tons of analogs comparing this to the flu in various ways. We realize we can't stop the flu. There isn't a cure for a flu. It mutates too much to even make the "vaccine" we pretend we have from being more effective than a tic tac most of the time....

The sooner that we come to the conclusion that no leader, no mask, no social distancing is actually going to STOP this. Allow it to run it's course. People will die. Hospitals will be full. And then all the ones who are left are stronger for it. It sucks, but it's natural selection at work. We can get back to the business of life.

**in no way shape of form is this an admission that this virus occurred naturally
...while I agree that nature always bats last, we spend half our lives in this country controlling nature to some degree or another. I do it every time I turn on a light.
Read it again, yourself. Nothing that you have said makes the idea of trying our best to control and modify the spread of this virus any less of a good idea.

If we stop doing the sort of stuff that science allows us to do with respect to nature, just because there is a large cohort of stupid in the USA, we're gonna drop into a very deep hole. Deeper than the one we're in already.
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Old 07-06-20, 07:03 PM
  #146  
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^^^^^ I got the check you get the tip
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Old 07-06-20, 07:17 PM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by u235 View Post
A person's specific feeling towards it doesn't change the outcome. Until there is a vaccine, every person on earth will get this virus and so will people not even born yet eventually. It is just a matter of when. Your specific outcome from it will be close to the statistical average of those before you.
So you're saying you're cool with it if you and people you love die from it?
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Old 07-07-20, 07:31 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
So you're saying you're cool with it if you and people you love die from it?
Once again, a compassion argument...

I don't think any of us would say we were "cool with" a loved one dying of ANYTHING, much less this. There are some of us that have an understanding that it could happen and is (mostly) out of our control or hands as to that outcome.
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Old 07-07-20, 07:32 AM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by Kat12 View Post
So you're saying you're cool with it if you and people you love die from it?
​​​​​
My opinion and thoughts doesn't promote or slow the threat or spread or it's impact. I think until there is a cure and drug for this, it will just keep going on and on. Some believe if they dislike it enough, it will just go away. I do not pretend to have the answer for the world. I do what I can and control for myself and family.

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Old 07-07-20, 08:08 AM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by u235 View Post
​​​​​
My opinion and thoughts doesn't promote or slow the threat or spread or it's impact. I think until there is a cure and drug for this, it will just keep going on and on. Some believe if they dislike it enough, it will just go away. I do not pretend to have the answer for the world. I do what I can and control for myself and family.
That would be Trump
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