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Just *****ing about Trek

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Just *****ing about Trek

Old 07-08-20, 12:32 PM
  #26  
ClydeClydeson
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I saw the words 'useless' and 'generic' above to describe the manuals that used to come with bikes, and I want to reiterate this.

The best information I ever saw was a package containing the 'useless generic' bicycle owners manual (basically a CYA strategy so if you get run over by a bus they can say they included a document that said 'bicycling can be dangerous'), and a similar generic manual for the suspension fork.

Shimano used to include manuals for their individual components in the form of multiple 36" x 36" (folded into 3" x 4") sheets that gave instructions for setting up their components. All of these sheets are now available online, but I think they still come in the package if you buy Shimano components aftermarket.
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Old 07-08-20, 02:44 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post
Did you get a repair manual with your car?
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.

Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
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Old 07-08-20, 02:58 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
I recall back in the early eighties when we'd by a new HP mini- computer at work, it would come with about 20 large binders crammed with technical information on every aspect of the hardware and software; a significant investment of time and money by the seller, but vastly increasing the ability of users to interface and build on the original system.

Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
Worked with DEC computers back then, but same sort of thing. But remember the prices? I think each of those binders cost $150-$500. In 1980 dollars. You could buy a couple gamer laptops for that price, inflated to today's dollars, now.
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Old 07-08-20, 05:06 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
But the campy notes and manuals that come with the parts are useless. They have zero useful information. Just bought tons of Campagnolo parts and can't say I will keep a single one. Information on line is OK.
Woah, what? Aside from having all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components. You don't think that is valuable? Do people prefer using their greasy fingers on their phones/computers in the middle of a job to look things up?
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Old 07-08-20, 05:56 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Chuckles1 View Post
That's what makes the forum so valuable!

I recall back in the early eighties when we'd by a new HP mini- computer at work, it would come with about 20 large binders crammed with technical information on every aspect of the hardware and software; a significant investment of time and money by the seller, but vastly increasing the ability of users to interface and build on the original system.

Those were the days... now you by a tablet that comes in a plastic bag and no instructions to tell you how to turn it on. We get great prices now, though. Before the internet, finding info was brutal, and providing it with products essential. Now, not so much.
I remember when IBM PCs came with a set of slipcased, linen-bound hardcover binders which covered every aspect of setup and use. Those days are long gone. Of course they probably cost $12,000 in today's money...
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Old 07-08-20, 06:09 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.

Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
The manual for my '67 VW Beetle even had a useable explanation of how to use the clutch and shift the gears, and how avoiding "very fast, racy-sporty driving" would maximize fuel economy. You could buy from the dealer a very comprehensive shop manual, complete with well-exposed and intelligently retouched illustrations with guys in lab coats in a spotless, white-tiled service bay showing exactly how the operations should be done, and with exactly which tool. You could change the spark plugs and oil, install and adjust a fan belt (vital on an air-cooled motor), adjust the valves (solid lifters) and change a tire with the tools in the little cloth tool roll and the excellent frame jack provided.
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Old 07-08-20, 06:22 PM
  #32  
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How to avoid "racy-sporty" driving:
1) Purchase a 1967 VW Beetle.
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Old 07-08-20, 07:56 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
I don't think I agree. Yes, perhaps better or more easily followed tutorials might be found online, but it's a stretch to say their manuals have zero useful information.

Heck the manual that comes with even a Chorus chain (123 pages btw) covers correct way to size, remove, pin and peen, determine wear requiring replacement, etc. The FD manual covers normal operation (2 clicks vs 3 clicks), how to use the barrel adjusters, etc..
Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
Woah, what? Aside from having all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components. You don't think that is valuable? Do people prefer using their greasy fingers on their phones/computers in the middle of a job to look things up?
I wonder if I am missing something. For example, in my brake/caliper purchase, all I have are two little pieces of paper. One is for the cables casings and one is for warranty information. I also have one other note for making sure to face the caliper mounts. Am I missing something?

For my crankset, there is a little booklet with some information but no torque settings or installation information at all that I could see. The booklet does have a QR scan image that points you to the website with information.

Bleed kit, no manual. The rear derailleur, no manual. Front derailleur, no manual. Just the warranty information. I bought the shifters, the crank and rear derailleur from Merlin and the bleed kit and front derailleur from Glory cycles in the USA. I just assumed that was how everything had gone.

Honestly, my Shimano XT stuff is similar.
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Old 07-09-20, 04:57 AM
  #34  
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Last year I installed Chorus 11 derailleurs with Record crank and brifters. No instructions of any sort were included with the boxed parts that came from QBP. Only thing in there was warranty info. That is it. Even the best stuff relies on internet searches for instructions.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:18 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I don't think calling a component manufacturer will get you much. I doubt many of them have printed instructions to send you. I haven't encountered a current part that didn't have instructions readily accessible online. If the manufacturer doesn't have info on their site there are likely to be You Tube videos. I don't recall bikes ever coming with much in the way of instructions. IMO, there is a more info available now than there ever was before, just in a different format. Plus you can always ask on BF
It certain won't get me anything. That's why I`m b****ing.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:21 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
I have never gotten an instruction manual with a bike. And years ago there was no internet or youtube. There were generic repair books, but a lot of info came from word of mouth and trial and error. Admittedly, bikes were a bit simpler many years ago.

The concept of being provided all inclusive maintenance instructions over many manufacturers is completely foreign to me.

John
Maybe it's an age thing. Just curious how old you are. This of us who are over 50 remember it as the rule.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:27 AM
  #37  
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Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."

I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
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Old 07-09-20, 05:28 AM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by madpogue View Post
I interpret the OP's grievance to be about routine maintenance, not "repair". And yes I've seen plenty of car/truck owner's manuals with information on how to change oil, rotate tires, etc. That said, my newest motor vehicle is 25 years old, and with the march of time, there is much less about today's vehicles that is left to the daily user.

Semi-side note -- browsing an antique mall years ago, I came across an owner's manual for a 1950s American car. It included information not just about changing a tire and checking/adding oil, but about repairing a tire puncture and changing the oil and filter.
Repair manuals, true, have never come with my cars, but there have alway been instructions manuals for use of all of the driver-facing systems. And 3rd partymanuals are available through Chilton and others.

Moreover: a very small percentage of people adjust and repair their own motor vehicles. A HUGE percentage of people adjust and repair their own bikes.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:35 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Last year I installed Chorus 11 derailleurs with Record crank and brifters. No instructions of any sort were included with the boxed parts that came from QBP. Only thing in there was warranty info. That is it. Even the best stuff relies on internet searches for instructions.
And that's why I'm b****ing, not merely complaining. All these makers (who are now merely assemblers) and parts manufacturers will be quick to void a warranty if I botch a repairment or adjust because I follow bad advice on the internet.

Some premium brands (Airstream) publish their own videos on YouTube. Or make manuals available on line. Trek does neither.

I say: light your torches and grab your pitchforks. It's time to say "no more."
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Old 07-09-20, 05:54 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."

I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
Maybe it varies by what the seller transfers to the shipping carton? The UK dealers often stick stuff in baggies from OEM kits they have, vs selling the boxed stuff. Even so, see at about 1'02" mark as well as about 1'55" or 2'45" marks... you get a glimpse of the User Manuals types that I referred to.


Did your parts come packaged as in the video above or in individual boxes like eg. below?
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Old 07-09-20, 07:55 AM
  #41  
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LJSENSE: Did you look at the manual? It has really helpful hints and incisive advice like: "Don't cross in front of a tractor trailer." "When you get on your new Trek, put your left foot on the left pedal and your right foot on your right pedal." And this always helpful rule of cycling: "Before each ride, carefully examine each component to be sure it's properly adjusted and working correctly." Of course how you could know this is unclear given that YOU DON'T HAVE A FR****IN' MANUAL.
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Old 07-09-20, 08:04 AM
  #42  
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Go to wally-world and find the guys gals who stick those 'over the pond' boxed junk together. 'treek' is nearly the same unit now.. they could help.

'treeeeek' is just another online marketing company... for some time.. selling by chance ...........bicycles.

And you want.. what a man-U-el... LMFAO.... THAT... would cost another couple bucks to produce. No way.... that'd limit their cocktail coins.

************

Oooops.. another add-end-um. wallyworld guys and gals sure as nice to me when I venture in the few times I do.. in search of something. 90% of the employes are excellent.. try hard... working best they can to make it. Kudos. Yet the polyester group via the southern slum lord company........... head in the dark end.. mostly.

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Old 07-09-20, 08:09 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Personally, I am now concerned that I got short end of the stick. Other people mentioned a document with "all of the information you need to install, adjust and maintain the given part (which sometimes involves procedures somewhat specific to Campagnolo parts), they usually include the torque specs for important components."
I would actually like something like that and am now wondering if I got shafted!
You definitely got shafted. Below are just a few parts that I have picked up very recently. Some from the UK online sites (including Merlin), some from Planet Cyclery. Almost all of them have been packed like this, aside from a couple that were clearly sold as 'open box' or whatever the terminology is. Also, these all had the clear Campagnolo seal sticker fully intact, so that might might be an indicator.


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Old 07-09-20, 08:35 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by robertorolfo View Post
You definitely got shafted. Below are just a few parts that I have picked up very recently. Some from the UK online sites (including Merlin), some from Planet Cyclery. Almost all of them have been packed like this, aside from a couple that were clearly sold as 'open box' or whatever the terminology is. Also, these all had the clear Campagnolo seal sticker fully intact, so that might might be an indicator.


Wow. I don't have most of those. I have the small book for the rear derailleur. My shifters came in a Campagnolo box but the crank was in a plain brown box - but with the crank secured with fitting cardboard.
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Old 07-09-20, 09:31 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
And that's why I'm b****ing, not merely complaining. All these makers (who are now merely assemblers) and parts manufacturers will be quick to void a warranty if I botch a repairment or adjust because I follow bad advice on the internet.

Some premium brands (Airstream) publish their own videos on YouTube. Or make manuals available on line. Trek does neither.

I say: light your torches and grab your pitchforks. It's time to say "no more."

Lots of 'reality tv' drama....as in drama for drama's sake..here. Thirty years ago you might have had a point. Today..there's a nearly infinite amount of text and video information available on the web, in addition to an extensive amount of first-hand experience right here on BF. Let's face it..product manuals are primarily for clarifying any (lack of) liability concerns associated with the use of the product or the box or bag it came in and a equally generic reference to a warranty, if any. Any other useful info is of such a generic nature that it's useless to anyone with an IQ over, say, 70.

If you have questions about your bike(s)..ask away or google it. All the info is readily available.
.
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Old 07-09-20, 09:37 AM
  #46  
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Drama for drama's sake

Originally Posted by fishboat View Post
Lots of 'reality tv' drama....as in drama for drama's sake..here. Thirty years ago you might have had a point. Today..there's a nearly infinite amount of text and video information available on the web, in addition to an extensive amount of first-hand experience right here on BF. Let's face it..product manuals are primarily for clarifying any (lack of) liability concerns associated with the use of the product or the box or bag it came in and a equally generic reference to a warranty, if any. Any other useful info is of such a generic nature that it's useless to anyone with an IQ over, say, 70.

If you have questions about your bike(s)..ask away or google it. All the info is readily available.
.
You have a right to your opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how people don't just accept the new corporate attitude of pay-your-money-and-don't-ask-us-for-any-customer-support, but embrace and defend it. If a self-repair or self-maintenance that lead to damage didn't void the warranty, then you might have a point. But them's not the facts, ma'am.

It also never ceases to amaze me how people will be blatantly rude in a conversation on line in a way that they would mostly not be face to face.
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Old 07-09-20, 09:53 AM
  #47  
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Could be explanations for the not infrequent "LBS screwed up xyz service" stories..? unless every LBS is putting a laptop up on the workbench for their mechanics to reference while they work. The home mechanics otoh are evidently bringing their laptops (wifi permitting) out to their garages to follow along on the youtube video tutorials while they work.
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Old 07-09-20, 09:55 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
LJSENSE: Did you look at the manual? It has really helpful hints and incisive advice like: "Don't cross in front of a tractor trailer."
It says that nowhere. I just looked.

Here is what the intro to the manual actually says:

OUR BEST ADVICE FROM 40+ YEARS OF HAVING FUN ON BIKES

Make damn sure your front wheel is on right and tight. Check it before every ride. Seriously. If you’re not sure how the wheel attaches, the details are inside (see p. 17).

You only get one brain. Helmets are really inexpensive compared to the cost of crashing without one. We’re gonna preach now: just wear one.

Avoid anything that can get stuck in your front wheel. For example: a shopping bag in your hand, purse, backpack straps, or sticks on the trail. If the front wheel stops suddenly, you’re going to have a bad time.

Use bike lights on every ride, day and night. Light technology is amazing these days. Using them on every ride, even when the sun is shining, is the single best way to stand out to motorists.

If it doesn’t feel or sound right, get it checked out. Just like planes, bikes are easier to fix before you take off. Trek retailers are there to help.

We’ll take care of you. No matter what. If you ever have a problem your local Trek shop can’t solve, connect with Trek customer service or write Trek President John Burke directly at j.burke@trekbikes.com.

Read the rest of this manual. 40 years on the road and trail have taught us a lot of stuff worth sharing.

So, there you go. Visit the Trek shop where you supposedly bought these bikes. If they can't personally explain or provide resources to help whatever it is you want to know -- like this Bluetooth system you say your bike has -- you can email the president of Trek directly and complain that they don't have a YouTube channel.
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Old 07-09-20, 10:34 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
Maybe it's an age thing. Just curious how old you are. This of us who are over 50 remember it as the rule.
I’m 68 and have purchased new bikes from an LBS; although it has been quite a while.

However, in looking back, I do recall that prior to those purchases I bought a couple of Sears Free Spirit bikes and I believe the bikes with some instructions.

I do find this discussion pretty intense and a sense that bicycle manufacturers need to supply hard copy manuals for their products. The discussion of hard copies should happen over on C&V.

I agree that it should be necessary for Trek to provide information online to enable the safe operation of the bike. I will never agree that Trek should provide information necessary to setup and bleeding hydraulic brakes or any other component that would impact the safe operation of the bike.

While I understand the OP’s complaint, I would hardly feel secure allowing him to do maintenance on my bikes since I have no clue how competent he is. Why would Trek encourage a customer to do maintenance on a bike and then possibly get injured? I don’t think we were all born last night.

There is an unbelievable amount of information online. Anyone who has done anything on a bike can attest to the plethora (and not piñatas) of YouTube videos out there that can guide someone to work on a bike and not kill themselves Honestly if someone can’t find it online, how much can will some sheets of paper help?

John
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Old 07-09-20, 11:05 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by vespasianus View Post
Wow. I don't have most of those. I have the small book for the rear derailleur. My shifters came in a Campagnolo box but the crank was in a plain brown box - but with the crank secured with fitting cardboard.
Anything in an original Campagnolo box should have all the documentation. Usually it is right on top (the first thing you see when you open the box), but sometimes it is underneath things. Did your shifters and other parts in the correct boxes have the seal (sticker) intact?

I've also purchase "take off" cranks and they came the same way, but that was expected. No big loss, although some of the Campagnolo boxes (not sure about cranks) can be transformed into a little display version, which is sorta fun if you want to leave them around like that prior to installation.

Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
You have a right to your opinion. It never ceases to amaze me how people don't just accept the new corporate attitude of pay-your-money-and-don't-ask-us-for-any-customer-support, but embrace and defend it. If a self-repair or self-maintenance that lead to damage didn't void the warranty, then you might have a point. But them's not the facts, ma'am.
I'm certainly not over 50, but I sympathize with you. Things aren't what they used to be in the business world, and although we all have to deal with it, some people really do seem too eager to defend and celebrate this new way of doing business.

That said, a small amount of blame lies with customers as well. Modern business practices generally mean paring expenses down to the bare bones to cover small margins, and that leaves little room to adequately meet the demands of all customers, because 'the customer is always right' has essentially created some monsters. Keeping things at arms length and pushing as much as possible onto other people's plates is sometimes the only viable way to go. Treating people right seems to be an invitation for people to take advantage of you, and nobody can afford that unless they are charging a big premium.

To be clear, it's not good. Not at all. But it's just part of the race to the bottom that has been in full effect for a few decades now. When the lowest common denominator is the most profitable market segment, the rest of us are often left to suffer...
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