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Let's talk about Sweden

Old 07-09-20, 10:36 AM
  #26  
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Old 07-09-20, 10:40 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by tomtomtom123 View Post
I think it's a bit misleading to compare only the rate of death per million population. Death would depend on the relative aging of the country's population, the availability of intensive care in hospitals, quality of health care, time until initial treatment, healthiness of the population etc.

It's better to compare the rate of infection per million population because infection is more about individual and societal actions and public policy, and less about age and health.

When you do compare the rate of infection, Sweden is actually one of the worst in Europe, worse than the UK, Italy, and Spain. And the daily infection rate is not really fully under control in Sweden, at least not if you compare the current rates to the neighboring countries. Looking at the current chart, Sweden, has only returned to the May daily rate but at least down from the high of the June daily rate. If you compare it to Denmark, they have it reduced much much lower to before their March daily rate. The current daily infection rate in Sweden is much much greater in comparison. I wouldn't say it's under control yet in Sweden, maybe on the way there. Compared to Germany, the daily infection rate per million is more than 10 times higher in Sweden.
Yeah, I posted the daily infections curve in the OP, but I didn't devote that much attention to it. The infections curve has that weird sharp dip at the end, but I don't know how much significance to attach to it, maybe it's just a recency/delayed-reporting artifact. But if it is accurate, at least it shows a decrease, which is better than the U.S. can claim.

Factors of age and health:I don't know whether the U.S. is demographically any older or younger than Sweden, but I'm sure it is generally less healthy, and WAY fatter, and I've read that obesity is one of the biggest covid19 risk factors. I wonder how significant that is compared to behavior when comparing Sweden and U.S.
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Old 07-09-20, 11:23 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
How does 'every place is different, so we need different solutions by locale' equal 'you said some places were doing better, and now they're not'? Also, are places not different? Is there one solution which is the best solution for all places?
...there are basic, essential principles of epidemiology. They are long established, and yes, they apply pretty much universally when you reach a certain stage in any pandemic. We reached that stage in the USA months ago.




Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Yes those are my words and I own those words. LOOK AT THE GRAPHS. I'm just describing the graphs. Look at graphs of pretty much every other country, they tail off, they stay down. ....

...what you are doing, and quite obviously, is making a predictive assumption from those graphs.
This is a problem with numbers guys, who are deficient in other areas of learning like epidemiology and history.



Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Wait what? How did you get to there

?? Are you having a stroke? Maybe you should call an ambulance. Just don't call a Swedish one. How old are you anyways?[/QUOTE]

...this is very similar to arguing with someone who is a member of an apocalyptic death cult.
But one who has seen the truth that the original messianic leader has feet of clay, and has moved on....to another apocalyptic death cult with a different leader.

So I finished the lawn, and trimmed back some ivy. But I'm gonna do us both a favor and put you on ignore for a while. I hope someone else will keep you entertained.
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Old 07-09-20, 11:33 AM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...what you are doing, and quite obviously, is making a predictive assumption from those graphs.
Yes. Yes I am.

So I finished the lawn, and trimmed back some ivy. But I'm gonna do us both a favor and put you on ignore for a while. I hope someone else will keep you entertained.
As you say, both of us. There are already others in the thread (all the others!) who are capable of carrying on a discussion. Since I apparently can't convince you I'm not some kind of evil mastermind, I'm not going to try anymore.
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Old 07-09-20, 02:58 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...{bunch of images}
Let's stop this whole "its only Trump and supporters doing stupid stuff" narrative...
I wouldn't give you 1 cent for a politician...

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Old 07-09-20, 03:17 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by canopus View Post
Let's stop this whole "its only Trump and supporters doing stupid stuff" narrative...
I wouldn't give you 1 cent for a politician...


...pretty certain I included a news photo of a crowd of George Floyd demonstrators in my post. Maybe you missed it because you got triggered ?
Pointing this out does not in any way refute the fact that Trump and the guys attending those rallies are creating super spreader events in real time.

If you have information to the contrary, like how everyone is drinking Lysol before and after the rallies, this would be a good time to post it.
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Old 07-09-20, 03:30 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
If you have information to the contrary, like how everyone is drinking Lysol before and after the rallies, this would be a good time to post it.
Your one of those... got it. Have a nice day!
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Old 07-09-20, 03:35 PM
  #33  
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oopx, I said ahsposo above, I was confused between 3A and Ahsposo, because they both have 'A' and both recently changed their avatars.

It can get confusing interacting with so many regulars semi-anonymously.
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Old 07-09-20, 04:58 PM
  #34  
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Sweden's coronavirus death toll is now approaching zero, but experts are warning others not to hail it as a success

https://www.yahoo.com/news/swedens-c...130000568.html
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Old 07-09-20, 05:13 PM
  #35  
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Don’t mess with this Swedish girl and her death metal band HOW DARE YOU!

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Old 07-09-20, 05:21 PM
  #36  
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Thx for the link, good article. They cite 5x Denmark and 11x Norway but Forbes says 10-20x. Some other really interesting information in there:

"The deaths rates have fallen but it doesn't change the fact that our strategy has failed. And we don't know when the rates will rise again."
Swedish authorities said the reason the case rate shot up in June is due to increased testing.
That helps explain the weird bump in the cases curve -- what about the weird drop at the end?

As for why there's been a recent drop: "The short answer is, that there is no short answer," Pekka Nuorti, an epidemiologist in Finland's Tampere University, told Business Insider, pointing to changes in testing, changes in behaviors, and more time spent outside.

But Nuorti warned against taking much comfort from this chart alone.

"In general, looking only at total reported case counts can be misleading and they have a tendency to fluctuate," he said.

Sweden is now preparing for a second wave, like other countries — a situation it had hoped to avoid. Health Minister Lena Hallengren warned this week "the danger is not over," and announced Sweden is planning in case the virus starts to peak again.
How about Herd Immunity?
Many in Sweden argued that its plan would allow its population to achieve "herd immunity."

But that's not even close to being achieved: Tegnell said in June that "the trends in immunity have been surprisingly slow." One study then showed 6.1% of Sweden's population had developed antibodies by late May.
Elderly triage:
That applies to care homes, too, which have been hit hard: 90% of the country's deaths have been among those over 70. Care home workers previously said they were initially told to not bring residents to hospitals, or to give patients oxygen without a doctor's approval.
Compare that to today's L.A. times CA statistics show that lumping together the 65-79 and 80+ demographics adds up to about 14% of CA cases and 77% of CA deaths.

Conclusion:
Professor Luke O'Neill, an immunologist at Ireland's Trinity College Dublin, said the general consensus among European scientists is that, because of the high toll of deaths, "Sweden's strategy failed."

"In some ways, the decisions they made were based on how they assessed the evidence at the time. And other countries decided to be more aggressive and sadly the more aggressive approach turned out to be the more appropriate one."

Last edited by RubeRad; 07-09-20 at 05:26 PM.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:28 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by CycleryNorth81 View Post

Sweden's coronavirus death toll is now approaching zero

I'm glad they have managed to bring all of those dead folks back to life.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:45 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by canopus View Post
Your one of those... got it. Have a nice day!
...each day is better than the last. Life is sweet when you're in a high risk due to age group in a pandemic.
When I awake each morning, I lie there for a minute, thankful for another day. Then, some days like today, I work in the yard while it's still cool.

Otherwise, I hop on a bike and go for a 20 miler along the river trail.
I have two project bikes going right now, a 1958 (59 ?) Follis, and a '76 Colnago. No one is happier than I am.

BTW, since I am "one of those", it's "you're". It's a contraction. It was in the homework that your dog ate, probably.
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Old 07-09-20, 05:48 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
I'm glad they have managed to bring all of those dead folks back to life.
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Old 07-09-20, 07:49 PM
  #40  
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Precisely what I've heard from Swedes living in Sweden, and corroborated by a friend who persists in insisting Sweden's approach is a success for the US to emulate. Because, despite having many good qualities, my friend is an unrepentant free marketeer who genuinely believes an unfettered free market solves all problems. He's more concerned about the economic impact than the personal impact on victims and survivors.

My friend has also made significant lifestyle changes, including diet, to improve his health and that of his family. It's worked for him. And he believes it make them less vulnerable to low level chronic illnesses and acute illnesses like the flu, coronavirus, etc. He often posts articles linking vulnerability to COVID-19 with obesity and diabetes.

Perhaps without consciously being aware of it, my friend has become one of those elitists who believe most people who get sick are to blame for their own health problems and shouldn't burden the tax system.

Fortunately he hasn't -- so far -- extrapolated that to racial disparities in the data for COVID-19. That's a minefield.

I'm kinda wondering why he doesn't just move to Sweden if he believes it's such a great model for economic freedom... oh, wait, because "socialism." Right. It's good ("Sweden!") when it suits his purposes, and bad ("Venezuela!") when it doesn't.

Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
In early May, I asked a friend of mine (who is Italian, but lives in Stockholm) what he thought:
Quote:
Originally Posted by moi
Sweden interests me, in terms of their approach to controlling the spread. What do you think?
As for Sweden, don’t get me started ;-) In a nutshell, they just care about the economy and not at all about people. A lot of the stuff you are hearing, moreover, is pure propaganda: it is definitely not true that most Swedes are behaving responsibly, and the main reason for going for the botched herd immunity idea was that (a) hospitals were completely unprepared and (b) anything else would cost money they are not willing to spend. I’ll stop here!
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Old 07-09-20, 07:54 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
Digression, but... I saw Leon live in 1973 during his peak. One of the best concerts I've attended. Between Asylum Choir and Carney, along with many collaborations, he turned out some amazing music.
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Old 07-09-20, 08:02 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
My friend has also made significant lifestyle changes, including diet, to improve his health and that of his family. It's worked for him. And he believes it make them less vulnerable to low level chronic illnesses and acute illnesses like the flu, coronavirus, etc. He often posts articles linking vulnerability to COVID-19 with obesity and diabetes.
I have a friend at work who is into salvation by diet. He credits radical dietary change with him & his wife being able to get pregnant (which, who knows ,maybe, good for them) and sent around a link to an 'article' about how Chinese 5G oxygen deprivation is linked to covid19.

Perhaps without consciously being aware of it, my friend has become one of those elitists who believe most people who get sick are to blame for their own health problems and shouldn't burden the tax system.
weeeel, I'm not so sure i want my tax dollars to pay for the health care of people who choose to smoke... Maybe the cigarette tax should just be big enough to can cover that part?

I'm kinda wondering why he doesn't just move to Sweden if he believes it's such a great model for economic freedom... oh, wait, because "socialism." Right. It's good ("Sweden!") when it suits his purposes, and bad ("Venezuela!") when it doesn't.
Yeah, if he's worried about Obamacare 'Death Panels', apparently that's every individual doctor in Sweden who decides whether old people get treatment for covid19 or not.
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Old 07-09-20, 08:06 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Digression, but... I saw Leon live in 1973 during his peak. One of the best concerts I've attended. Between Asylum Choir and Carney, along with many collaborations, he turned out some amazing music.
I've never heard of Leon Russell. Then again there's lots of 'Rock-Roll' musicators I've never heard of. Never been to 'a concert' either. I don't get out much.
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Old 07-09-20, 08:10 PM
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Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I've never heard of Leon Russell. Then again there's lots of 'Rock-Roll' musicators I've never heard of. Never been to 'a concert' either. I don't get out much.
Start with the Carney album and the live concert video from the Concert for Bangladesh. Russell was also a terrific music director and bandleader, low key but definitely in charge.
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Old 07-09-20, 10:19 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Precisely what I've heard from Swedes living in Sweden, and corroborated by a friend who persists in insisting Sweden's approach is a success for the US to emulate. Because, despite having many good qualities, my friend is an unrepentant free marketeer who genuinely believes an unfettered free market solves all problems. He's more concerned about the economic impact than the personal impact on victims and survivors.

My friend has also made significant lifestyle changes, including diet, to improve his health and that of his family. It's worked for him. And he believes it make them less vulnerable to low level chronic illnesses and acute illnesses like the flu, coronavirus, etc. He often posts articles linking vulnerability to COVID-19 with obesity and diabetes.

Perhaps without consciously being aware of it, my friend has become one of those elitists who believe most people who get sick are to blame for their own health problems and shouldn't burden the tax system.

Fortunately he hasn't -- so far -- extrapolated that to racial disparities in the data for COVID-19. That's a minefield.

I'm kinda wondering why he doesn't just move to Sweden if he believes it's such a great model for economic freedom... oh, wait, because "socialism." Right. It's good ("Sweden!") when it suits his purposes, and bad ("Venezuela!") when it doesn't.
Yup, it was my diet of Cheetos and cheap beer that caused me to catch dupuytrens contracture A good diet isnít a bad idea I try to eat right but I have my weakness for delicious Tex-Mex food. Yum!
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Old 07-09-20, 11:00 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by canopus View Post
Your one of those.
You're ...
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Old 07-10-20, 12:10 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by wgscott View Post
You're ...
Or, "your" is possessive. One of those things? people? belongs to you. (Until I hear what or who, I don't know whether to congratulate or pity you.)

I wasn't a great student but our cat never ate homework.
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Old 07-10-20, 12:15 AM
  #48  
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Reading all these threads and statements is making my head spin . Just taking in all the points of view and the only thing I can come up with is a very simple WE JUST DON’T KNOW.
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Old 07-12-20, 10:17 AM
  #49  
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Let's Talk About Florida...

.
...sunny beaches, Disney World Resort, the Keys, Sanibel Island, the Everglades, alligator wrestling and now:

Florida sets grim coronavirus record with nearly 500 deaths in one week


Floridaís weekly mortality average three weeks ago stood around 30 fatalities before the state started seeing spikes -- reaching their current daily record of 120 deaths reported Thursday
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Old 07-12-20, 10:19 AM
  #50  
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DeSantis has echoed the president’s rhetoric, claiming that the threat of infection has not increased, but that tests are just more readily available.

"There's no need to be fearful," he said earlier this week.

"There have been way more infections than documented cases,'' DeSantis said Monday. "But it's not really evidence that it's more prevalent."

The governor, like the president, has pushed for schools to reopen in the fall, citing concern over an “education gap” that virtual learning will cause.
...clearly we are dealing with an education gap.
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