Go Back  Bike Forums > The Lounge > Coronavirus/COVID-19
Reload this Page >

Let's talk about Sweden

Notices
Coronavirus/COVID-19 Discussion of the novel coronavirus

Let's talk about Sweden

Old 07-08-20, 08:40 PM
  #1  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Let's talk about Sweden

Sweden is at 5482 deaths, and appears to be almost done:




That's 7th in the world with 543 Deaths/1M population (behind UK, Spain, Italy). U.S. is currenly 9th with 407, but clearly we're just getting started.

Forbes has an interesting article:

As governments around the world were ordering citizens to stay home beginning in March through the end of April, the Swedish approach was far more muted. High schools and universities closed, but younger children stayed in school, shops stayed open and Swedes were encouraged to socially isolate and stay a few feet away from each other, but to do so voluntarily.

For weeks, headlines in the English-speaking world called out Sweden and its outlier approach. Sweden stayed open, and as a result, many Swedes died. That was, and has been, the basic narrative. ...

While more people have died of Covid-19 per capita in Sweden than in many other countries, the outbreak of the disease did not crush the nationís health care system and overload its intensive care units as predicted.

ďAnalyzed by categorical age group, older Swedish patients with confirmed COVID-19 were more likely to die than to be admitted to the ICU, suggesting that predicted prognosis may have been a factor in ICU admission,Ē the researchers write in a study published online for the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases. ďThis likely reduced ICU load at the cost of more high-risk patients dying outside the ICU.Ē

The implication here is that Sweden chose to emphasize personal responsibility, but when the choice led to increased infections among the elderly, medical professionals seem to have taken on the responsibility of choosing who likely lives and dies.

Given that the analysis finds not all the nationís ICU beds were occupied, itís not even clear that this was necessary.
RubeRad is offline  
Likes For RubeRad:
Old 07-08-20, 09:03 PM
  #2  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts

Sweden Launches Commission to Investigate Coronavirus Response

...maybe we should let the Swedes figure it out, first ? The idea that this is "almost done" does not seem to fit well with what I understand about how this virus works.
3alarmer is offline  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 07-08-20, 09:05 PM
  #3  
Hondo Gravel
Viking Berserker
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 1,810

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1248 Post(s)
Liked 1,098 Times in 709 Posts
Good article kind of back and forth. Responsibilities depends upon the individual but without any enforcement they will slack off. Then who lives or dies? I don’t care as long I’m not dying .... This stuff is testing human reason and morality. So I don’t know.
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Old 07-08-20, 09:15 PM
  #4  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,156
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times in 649 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Why do you insist on insisting that I am trying to explain away the death toll?
​​​​​​​Beats me.
wgscott is offline  
Old 07-08-20, 09:36 PM
  #5  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...maybe we should let the Swedes figure it out, first ? The idea that this is "almost done" does not seem to fit well with what I understand about how this virus works.
Yes, the Forbes article also notes that Sweden has much higher numbers than its neighboring countries. But even so, it is better off than the UK and Spain and Italy.

I judge 'almost done' by the daily death curve tailing off to just a couple a day nationwide, and the new cases curve has taken a sharp nosedive after gradually declining for a while.

Yes there is always the possibility of a second wave, but it seems that (a) Sweden's non-lockdown policy was even more liberal (not in the political sense) than the U.S., but (b) somehow it's 'working' for them (their daily cases/deaths curves are approaching 0), and what we're doing is not working for us.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-08-20, 10:27 PM
  #6  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 11,363

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 183 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3610 Post(s)
Liked 1,133 Times in 752 Posts
The vast majority of COVID-19 deaths in Sweden are people over age 70. I've read speculation from some market watchers in media and Swedish acquaintances on FB that the government may have chosen to treat elderly patients less aggressively, mostly focusing on palliative care than cures, to avoid burdening the health care system. But those are just anecdotes, no more authoritative than my radical leftist and rightist American acquaintances.

As with the US, COVID-19 appears to pose little or no risk to children. And comparatively little risk to adults under age 60.

Which is why we are doomed to watch this run its course as it wipes out a significant number of elderly and disabled folks, who will be considered acceptable losses in favor of allowing the party to continue without harshing anyone's buzz.
canklecat is offline  
Likes For canklecat:
Old 07-08-20, 10:55 PM
  #7  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Yes, the Forbes article also notes that Sweden has much higher numbers than its neighboring countries. But even so, it is better off than the UK and Spain and Italy.

I judge 'almost done' by the daily death curve tailing off to just a couple a day nationwide, and the new cases curve has taken a sharp nosedive after gradually declining for a while.

Yes there is always the possibility of a second wave, but it seems that (a) Sweden's non-lockdown policy was even more liberal (not in the political sense) than the U.S., but (b) somehow it's 'working' for them (their daily cases/deaths curves are approaching 0), and what we're doing is not working for us.
...whether it's "working" for them is kind of up in the air. All Covid 19 pandemic numbers are constantly in flux...a lot of the places you were previously telling me were doing OK are not now. So I've lost faith in your ability to dispassionately analyze what's going on with this disease. I would also ask you why you presume that somehow, Sweden's solution is better than it's neighboring countries, which thus far have posted death tolls that are lower by a factor of ten. Do you think those places are doing worse economically than Sweden ? I haven't looked at the data, but my guess would be that overall thus far, they are not. But it's just a guess.

Mostly, your assumption that Sweden has done no more than we have done is wrong. In the United States, driven mostly by politics, we appear to have been encouraging super spreader events. See the latest news on Tulsa. The idea that what has happened in Sweden is "more liberal" than what has transpired in the United States is just another fallacious assumption. This is not the first time I've pointed this out to you.
3alarmer is offline  
Likes For 3alarmer:
Old 07-08-20, 11:08 PM
  #8  
Hondo Gravel
Viking Berserker
 
Hondo Gravel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Hondo,Texas
Posts: 1,810

Bikes: Too many Motobecanes

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1248 Post(s)
Liked 1,098 Times in 709 Posts
Nobody knows and that is the reality. The world’s best experts contradict each other. Our local so called officials can barely read .
Hondo Gravel is offline  
Likes For Hondo Gravel:
Old 07-09-20, 07:56 AM
  #9  
Trevtassie
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Down Under
Posts: 1,588

Bikes: A steel framed 26" off road tourer from a manufacturer who thinks they are cool. Giant Anthem. Trek 720 Multiroad pub bike. 10 kids bikes all under 20". Assorted waifs and unfinished projects.

Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 523 Post(s)
Liked 316 Times in 162 Posts
The real joke is that Sweden's economy actually took a bigger hit than neighboring Finland and still only has something like 6% total infected, so no herd immunity.
Trevtassie is offline  
Likes For Trevtassie:
Old 07-09-20, 08:31 AM
  #10  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts
Not happening in Sweden right now is stuff like this.

What Will Trumpís Rally in New Hampshire Be Like? Itís Anyoneís Guess


...or this:

3alarmer is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 09:09 AM
  #11  
berner
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Bristol, R. I.
Posts: 4,161

Bikes: Specialized Secteur, old Peugeot

Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 578 Post(s)
Liked 356 Times in 227 Posts
Not that much is known with complete certainty about the transmission of infection. Only in the last day or two has the WHO acknowledged airborne transmission of infection. Yet Trump is pressuring school to reopen under the threat of withholding funds. Evidently the economy is deemed more important than the lives of young people. I wonder if Trump would sit in the same classroom as those kids, even for an hour.
berner is online now  
Old 07-09-20, 09:15 AM
  #12  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
The vast majority of COVID-19 deaths in Sweden are people over age 70. I've read speculation from some market watchers in media and Swedish acquaintances on FB that the government may have chosen to treat elderly patients less aggressively, mostly focusing on palliative care than cures, to avoid burdening the health care system. But those are just anecdotes, no more authoritative than my radical leftist and rightist American acquaintances.
The Forbes article confirms that.
The implication here is that Sweden chose to emphasize personal responsibility, but when the choice led to increased infections among the elderly, medical professionals seem to have taken on the responsibility of choosing who likely lives and dies.

Given that the analysis finds not all the nationís ICU beds were occupied, itís not even clear that this was necessary.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 09:40 AM
  #13  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...whether it's "working" for them is kind of up in the air. All Covid 19 pandemic numbers are constantly in flux...a lot of the places you were previously telling me were doing OK are not now. So I've lost faith in your ability to dispassionately analyze what's going on with this disease. I would also ask you why you presume that somehow, Sweden's solution is better than it's neighboring countries, which thus far have posted death tolls that are lower by a factor of ten. Do you think those places are doing worse economically than Sweden ? I haven't looked at the data, but my guess would be that overall thus far, they are not. But it's just a guess.
Dude, chill the f out! You continue to read between my lines and find stuff that isn't there. I'm losing faith in my ability to dispassionately respond to your continual misinterpretation of my questions as assertions

What places did I tell you were doing OK and are not now?

I don't presume that Sweden's solution is 'better' than its neighboring countries. I am noticing, like the rest of the world, that it is different, and trying to understand it. I also haven't looked at the data, so I also don't know whether Norway/Finland/Denmark economies are doing worse. Maybe somebody should start a 'discussion' thread so we can dig up some data and examine it. Oh wait I already did that. Does Sweden have more deaths than their neighbors? Yes, like 10-20x, and I'm not denying it.

In terms of 'better', Sweden is definitely doing better than the apocalypse that everybody else expected, they're doing better than UK, Spain and Italy for reasons we don't understand (and I would like to understand them so I ask questions), and although they're currently doing a little worse than the US in terms of deaths per capita, if the curves continue along their current trajectories, then the US will pass them soon. This despite Sweden adopting an apparently looser policy than the US. So before long, we're going to be in a situation where the US deaths per capita, and economy are both worse than Sweden, despite trying 'harder' (?) to control the disease than Sweden. (see that question mark there? and the word 'apparently'? that means I'm not making a hard assertion, I'm wondering whether something is correct so we can discuss it) That's lose-lose-lose, and I'd like to understand why.

Mostly, your assumption that Sweden has done no more than we have done is wrong. In the United States, driven mostly by politics, we appear to have been encouraging super spreader events. See the latest news on Tulsa. The idea that what has happened in Sweden is "more liberal" than what has transpired in the United States is just another fallacious assumption. This is not the first time I've pointed this out to you.
I don't recall any discussion about Sweden before. That's why I started a new thread. Maybe I'm growing senile. I certainly don't endorse super-spreader Trump rallies. When they happened, I made a falsifiable prediction that in about 2 weeks, right around July 4th, we should look for a wave of infections. Now that wave is appearing, and I'm saying yup, there it is.

If the appearance/"assumption that Sweden has done no more than we have done is wrong", then let's talk about it. THAT'S WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. Because on the face of it, to me, Sweden's approach seems looser, but the US is getting worse results. So something doesn't add up and I want to understand it

Last edited by RubeRad; 07-09-20 at 10:06 AM.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 09:56 AM
  #14  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,588

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8651 Post(s)
Liked 1,000 Times in 690 Posts
Originally Posted by Hondo Gravel View Post
Good article kind of back and forth. Responsibilities depends upon the individual but without any enforcement they will slack off. Then who lives or dies? I donít care as long Iím not dying .... This stuff is testing human reason and morality. So I donít know.
This also depended on a somewhat well disciplined population...

Not this sort of activity...

https://wsbt.com/news/local/video-of...al?jwsource=cl

https://wsbt.com/news/local/video-of...ing-goes-viral
genec is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:05 AM
  #15  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by genec View Post
This also depended on a somewhat well disciplined population...
Yeah the Forbes article touched on that a little too:
ďOur study shows that individually driven infection-control measures can have a substantial effect on national outcomes, and we see Sweden as a good example of this case,Ē said co-auth0r Peter Kasson from the University of Virginia School of Medicine and Uppsala University. ďHigher levels of individual action would further suppress the infection, while a complete lack of individual action would likely have led to runaway infection, which, fortunately, hasnít happened

The analysis finds that nearly a third of Swedish residents voluntarily self-isolated.
'Nearly a third' doesn't seem to me like nearly enough to make any difference!
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:15 AM
  #16  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts
Typhoid Donnie

Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Dude, chill the f out! You continue to read between my lines and find stuff that isn't there. I'm losing faith in my ability to dispassionately respond to your continual misinterpretation of my questions as assertions

What places did I tell you were doing OK and are not now?
...would have been back in those two threads I started in teh P+R, way back before this special forum even existed. It was couched in terms of "well, every place is different, so we need different solutions by locale". I don't have P + R access any more, because once I lost it, I realized what a blessing it was to be relieved of the responsibility of posting sane stuff in there. You can go home again.

Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I don't presume that Sweden's solution is 'better' than its neighboring countries. I am noticing, like the rest of the world, that it is different, and trying to understand it. I also haven't looked at the data, so I also don't know whether Norway/Finland/Denmark economies are doing worse. Maybe somebody should start a 'discussion' thread so we can dig up some data and examine it. Oh wait I already did that. Does Sweden have more deaths than their neighbors? Yes, like 50x per capita, and I'm not denying it.
,,,yet your whole initial premise here is that Sweden appears to be tailing off, and they are "almost done". Your words, not mine, and I repeat them here for context.

Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
In terms of 'better', Sweden is definitely doing better than the apocalypse that everybody else expected, they're doing better than UK, Spain and Italy for reasons we don't understand (and I would like to understand them so I ask questions), and although they're currently doing a little worse than the US in terms of deaths per capita, if the curves continue along their current trajectories, then the US will pass them soon. This despite Sweden adopting an apparently looser policy than the US. So before long, we're going to be in a situation where the US deaths per capita, and economy are both worse than Sweden, despite trying 'harder' (?) to control the disease than Sweden. (see that question mark there? and the word 'apparently'? that means I'm not making a hard assertion, I'm wondering whether something is correct so we can discuss it) That's lose-lose-lose, and I'd like to understand why.
...I have already pointed out the fallacy in this assumption. I'm not going to repeat it, because you appear immune to it.


Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
I don't recall any discussion about Sweden before. That's why I started a new thread. Maybe I'm growing senile. I certainly don't endorse super-spreader Trump rallies. When they happened, I made a falsifiable prediction that in about 2 weeks, right around July 4th, we should look for a wave of infections. Now that wave is appearing, and I'm saying yup, there it is.
...the Swedish solution has been previously referenced, by you and by others. I'm not gonna waste time looking for it. I have to mow the lawn.

Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
If the appearance/"assumption that Sweden has done no more than we have done is wrong", then let's talk about it. THAT'S WHY I STARTED THIS THREAD. Because on the face of it, to me, Sweden's approach seems looser, but the US is getting worse results. So something doesn't add up and I want to understand it


^^^the crowd watching the flyover at Mt Rushmore on the 4th ^^^


^^^ Tulsa rally ^^^

...and the irrational reactions that he elicits. The Church Faithful in a lot of places aren't helping either. And I have some reservations about all the George Floyd mass protests, even if they did mask up.

You're asking for rational answers in the age of Idiocracy. All I can tell you is it's got electrolytes, which is what plants need.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:16 AM
  #17  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
So this:

“Analyzed by categorical age group, older Swedish patients with confirmed COVID-19 were more likely to die than to be admitted to the ICU, suggesting that predicted prognosis may have been a factor in ICU admission,” the researchers write in a study published online for the journal Clinical Infectious Diseases. “This likely reduced ICU load at the cost of more high-risk patients dying outside the ICU.”

The implication here is that Sweden chose to emphasize personal responsibility, but when the choice led to increased infections among the elderly, medical professionals seem to have taken on the responsibility of choosing who likely lives and dies.
drug up a memory of something a friend told me* before all the coronavirus stuff. Sweden is often held up as an example of socialized medicine, but in Sweden (my friend said*), it is common for old people to go to the doctor or the hospital with a terminal, but treatable, but expensive, condition, and the doctor will just say, 'nope, sorry you're too old. good luck with that'. If that's true*, that jives with this report that Sweden is triaging the elderly away from the ICU and letting them die, and maybe goes towards explaining why Sweden might be inclined to choose a strategy that will obviously have a high death toll among the elderly.

*my friend is not a 3A-certified, fact-checked investigative journalist. citation of my friend is in no way intended to imply that cited information is infallible, or in any way more significant than an individual anecdote

Last edited by RubeRad; 07-09-20 at 08:03 PM.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:22 AM
  #18  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Yeah the Forbes article touched on that a little too:
'Nearly a third' doesn't seem to me like nearly enough to make any difference!
...what do you think they mean there by "self isolation" ? Do you think maybe a large percentage of the other residents might be masking and distancing ?
3alarmer is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:23 AM
  #19  
3alarmer
Friendship is Magic
 
3alarmer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: The Big Tomato
Posts: 18,754

Bikes: old ones

Mentioned: 258 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17974 Post(s)
Liked 1,651 Times in 1,206 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
So this:



drug up a memory of something a friend told me* before all the coronavirus stuff. Sweden is often held up as an example of socialized medicine, but in Sweden (my friend said*), it is common for old people to go to the doctor or the hospital with a terminal, but treatable, but expensive, condition, and the doctor will just say, 'nope, sorry you're too old. good luck with that'. If that's true*, that jives with this report that Sweden is triaging the elderly away from the ICU and letting them die, and maybe goes towards explaining why Sweden might be inclined to choose a strategy that will obviously have a high death toll among the elderly.

*my friend is not an ahsposo-certified, fact-checked investigative journalist. citation of my friend is in no way intended to imply that cited information is infallible, or in any way more significant than an individual anecdote
...yes. Obviously the high death toll is because of socialized medicine.
3alarmer is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:25 AM
  #20  
wgscott
Occam's Rotor
 
wgscott's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Posts: 6,156
Mentioned: 61 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2366 Post(s)
Liked 1,238 Times in 649 Posts
In early May, I asked a friend of mine (who is Italian, but lives in Stockholm) what he thought:

Originally Posted by moi
Sweden interests me, in terms of their approach to controlling the spread. What do you think?
As for Sweden, don’t get me started ;-) In a nutshell, they just care about the economy and not at all about people. A lot of the stuff you are hearing, moreover, is pure propaganda: it is definitely not true that most Swedes are behaving responsibly, and the main reason for going for the botched herd immunity idea was that (a) hospitals were completely unprepared and (b) anything else would cost money they are not willing to spend. I’ll stop here!
wgscott is offline  
Likes For wgscott:
Old 07-09-20, 10:26 AM
  #21  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...would have been back in those two threads I started in teh P+R, way back before this special forum even existed. It was couched in terms of "well, every place is different, so we need different solutions by locale". I don't have P + R access any more, because once I lost it, I realized what a blessing it was to be relieved of the responsibility of posting sane stuff in there. You can go home again.
How does 'every place is different, so we need different solutions by locale' equal 'you said some places were doing better, and now they're not'? Also, are places not different? Is there one solution which is the best solution for all places?



,,,yet your whole initial premise here is that Sweden appears to be tailing off, and they are "almost done". Your words, not mine, and I repeat them here for context.
Yes those are my words and I own those words. LOOK AT THE GRAPHS. I'm just describing the graphs. Look at graphs of pretty much every other country, they tail off, they stay down. There was a great graph posted somewhere (by Seattle Forrest I think) plotting like a dozen country's curves, they all had the same shape of a quick rise and a steady taildown, indicating they had gotten the disease under control, except against that consistent background, the US stood out like a sore thumb with its giant 2nd wave. Does that mean I am advocating Sweden and/or the U.S. should now abandon all controls because the virus has 'one day it's just magically gone'? Only if you are bound and determined to read that into what I'm actually saying.


And I have some reservations about all the George Floyd mass protests, even if they did mask up.
Wait what? How did you get to there

You're asking for rational answers in the age of Idiocracy. All I can tell you is it's got electrolytes, which is what plants need.
?? Are you having a stroke? Maybe you should call an ambulance. Just don't call a Swedish one. How old are you anyways?
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:28 AM
  #22  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...what do you think they mean there by "self isolation" ? Do you think maybe a large percentage of the other residents might be masking and distancing ?
I guess that must be the case. It would have been good if the Forbes article went into detail about the behavior of the 2/3. I would like to learn more about that.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:28 AM
  #23  
tomtomtom123
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 945
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 306 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 98 Times in 70 Posts
I think it's a bit misleading to compare only the rate of death per million population. Death would depend on the relative aging of the country's population, the availability of intensive care in hospitals, quality of health care, time until initial treatment, healthiness of the population etc.

It's better to compare the rate of infection per million population because infection is more about individual and societal actions and public policy, and less about age and health.

When you do compare the rate of infection, Sweden is actually one of the worst in Europe, worse than the UK, Italy, and Spain. And the daily infection rate is not really fully under control in Sweden, at least not if you compare the current rates to the neighboring countries. Looking at the current chart, Sweden, has only returned to the May daily rate but at least down from the high of the June daily rate. If you compare it to Denmark, they have it reduced much much lower to before their March daily rate. The current daily infection rate in Sweden is much much greater in comparison. I wouldn't say it's under control yet in Sweden, maybe on the way there. Compared to Germany, the current daily infection rate per million is more than 10 times higher in Sweden.

Germany is doing much better than it's neighbors. The current number of active cases was around 5000 people last time I checked. In comparison, Spain and France were around 50000 to 60000, while Italy was around 20000. And the population of Germany is much larger than the others.

Last edited by tomtomtom123; 07-09-20 at 10:45 AM.
tomtomtom123 is offline  
Likes For tomtomtom123:
Old 07-09-20, 10:32 AM
  #24  
RubeRad
Keepin it Wheel
Thread Starter
 
RubeRad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: San Diego
Posts: 9,217

Bikes: Surly CrossCheck, Moto Fantom29 ProSL hardtail

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Liked 577 Times in 430 Posts
[QUOTE=wgscott;21578050]In early May, I asked a friend of mine (who is Italian, but lives in Stockholm) what he thought:

moi: Sweden interests me, in terms of their approach to controlling the spread. What do you think?
I think don't ask 3A that question, he'll peg you as a trump-supporting covid-hoaxer for sure!

As for Sweden, don’t get me started ;-) In a nutshell, they just care about the economy and not at all about people. A lot of the stuff you are hearing, moreover, is pure propaganda: it is definitely not true that most Swedes are behaving responsibly, and the main reason for going for the botched herd immunity idea was that (a) hospitals were completely unprepared and (b) anything else would cost money they are not willing to spend. I’ll stop here!
'stuff you are hearing', do you have a sense what he's referring to? apparently rumors that the Swedes are behaving responsibly?

Last edited by RubeRad; 07-09-20 at 03:33 PM.
RubeRad is offline  
Old 07-09-20, 10:34 AM
  #25  
genec
genec
 
genec's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: West Coast
Posts: 26,588

Bikes: custom built, sannino, beachbike, giant trance x2

Mentioned: 44 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8651 Post(s)
Liked 1,000 Times in 690 Posts
Originally Posted by RubeRad View Post
Yeah the Forbes article touched on that a little too:
'Nearly a third' doesn't seem to me like nearly enough to make any difference!
Here in the US we have 'Nearly a third' denying that the virus exists while "dancing cheek to cheek." Go figure.
genec is offline  
Likes For genec:

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.