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Filetreads ARE faster!

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Filetreads ARE faster!

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Old 10-01-17, 03:26 PM
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JeffOYB
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Filetreads ARE faster!

It seems obvious but I've tried mine a few times on my yard course and didn't really know how much faster they were.

It seems like I have to pump them up a few PSI firmer than my knobby tires of same diameter.

It's been dry so far this season so I'm being tempted more and more to race my filetreads. I tried them most seriously today so far. They definitely slipped and slided and washed out in the corners more. My course is dry and pretty firm but does have some loamy/leafy corners. Crashed out once.

I tried a few moderate laps on my moderate-knob FMB + Cane Creek sweet wheelset and came in a consistent 3min25sec per lap.

Then I did a few laps on my Challenge filetreads on ancient Yellow Label 36spoke wheels and the laps all clocked in at 3:15.

I could vary my perceived effort and my lap times still came in with those differences. Seems like a noticeable difference! ...But I did have to ride smoother and pay more attention in the corners. And I wasn't really pushing it. At race pace I'm guessing I'd have to take it noticeably easier in tricky corners if there was any looseness to them. But it seems like they do still go faster.

They were fun and I like a skill challenge to try to figure out.
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Old 10-02-17, 10:47 AM
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While not the most scientific test situation, nice try testing out the different tires! Working up the skill in the corners can only help in the long run. I've been told a few times if you aren't falling you aren't trying hard enough.

That said, I don't think I'd race on file treads on any course that wasn't all grass. Any dirt corners and I'd want more knobs. Especially in racing conditions where 15 seconds does not really matter when all you have to do is beat the guy in front of you.

Add in the risk and extra effort to avoid washing out in a corner? No thanks. Gotta finish the race to win it.
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Old 10-03-17, 03:49 PM
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I'm confused. 15 secs would let me beat the guy ahead of me.

Anyway, I just messed up my theory. I'd been doing repeatable 3:25 w knobs, 3:15 filetread. Today I did 3:10 with both filetread and knobs. So much for that! Of course I was sliding a bit w both. The knobs were clearly easier in corners but the filetreads felt predictable even if slippy. I like a slippy feeling OK. I'm into skiing so I don't mind cultivating this angle. The filetreads did FEEL faster, like they wind up nice. I like them. If it's dry, I'll for sure do test laps of any event with them! I'll bring various wheels then race what feels best!
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Old 10-03-17, 09:44 PM
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Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
I'm confused. 15 secs would let me beat the guy ahead of me.
Sure it would. In a TT. But you're just talking about practicing in your own course; 15 seconds in practice seems negligible in the real world condition of a race.

Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
Anyway, I just messed up my theory. I'd been doing repeatable 3:25 w knobs, 3:15 filetread. Today I did 3:10 with both filetread and knobs. So much for that!
Exactly. This is what I meant about beating the guy in front of you. Timing laps in practice seems like a good idea to build up fitness and work toward beating your previous goal, but not that important since it is so dependent on the individual session. I'd be more worried about power output, heart rate or staying upright in practice and finding out what actually works on race day.

Originally Posted by JeffOYB View Post
I'll bring various wheels then race what feels best!
I can get behind this.
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Old 10-04-17, 11:54 AM
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if its dry, in the mud, not so good..
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Old 10-04-17, 01:35 PM
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Just bought some Chicanes
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Old 10-04-17, 02:50 PM
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No tread is faster

The linked blog post is about winning a 'cross race with 54mm road tires.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...tage-in-cross/
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Old 10-04-17, 03:31 PM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed View Post
The linked blog post is about winning a 'cross race with 54mm road tires.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...tage-in-cross/
i rode lake sammamish on MSOs, its the least technical of all the seattle races, and there was no elevation change. One of the few races out here that I think that would work on. Curious if he rode those on last week's silver lake course.
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Old 10-08-17, 05:06 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
if its dry, in the mud, not so good..
Ha. Definitely use a tire for its purpose. Dry hardpack with grass.

I raced yesterday damp grass hardpack. In the morning I used intermediate knobs and had 6:45 laps. In the afternoon the course held totally the same. I guess worn in a bit thought. I used filetreads and had 6:15 laps. Others had faster laps, too. But I finished way higher against way better racers. They're definitely LIGHTER and sure felt zippier.
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Old 10-13-17, 12:43 PM
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A file tread tire like the Speed Max has knobs on the sides for cornering so they are actually quite good in the corners. I love file treads and use them probably more then any other tire for the races in the south east which are typically dry.
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Old 11-07-17, 11:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Carcosa View Post
While not the most scientific test situation, nice try testing out the different tires! Working up the skill in the corners can only help in the long run. I've been told a few times if you aren't falling you aren't trying hard enough.

That said, I don't think I'd race on file treads on any course that wasn't all grass. Any dirt corners and I'd want more knobs. Especially in racing conditions where 15 seconds does not really matter when all you have to do is beat the guy in front of you.

Add in the risk and extra effort to avoid washing out in a corner? No thanks. Gotta finish the race to win it.
+1

Filetreads work if you are really used to them on an ideal course, but one slip or crash could eliminate all the benefit. I think for most of us, the risk isn't worth it. I always play it conservative and go a touch more aggressive just to have a higher factor of safety in corners.

There are fast local guys that race on mud tires year around and still place well.

My least aggressive tire is Ritchey Shield, works well enough on 90% of dry courses.

With that said it's fun to experiment, not to take anything away from you OP. Have at it....
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Old 11-08-17, 10:36 AM
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Originally Posted by OneIsAllYouNeed View Post
The linked blog post is about winning a 'cross race with 54mm road tires.

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2017/...tage-in-cross/
Interesting read, thanks.

yeah, I took my 60mm slicks mountain biking and obviouslyl they wer a total nightmare if the terrain was just a little bit damp. Forget damp grass or mud.

Interestingly they didn't do great on sandy turns either.

Jan is big on the "tredless thing" and Honest I lean that way too.

What he consistantly misses is that treaded tires slide well. Slicks go down fast and hard. Could he have saved is crash if he had knobs? I know I have been in situations where knobs made all the difference. I even ran knobs on the front and slicks on the back - the rear end obviously gave way in hard turns where sliding was involved.

Fattish tires on straight sand is an unfair advantage. Fattish tires work well if they have the traction (dry course or sand)

He makes a big point of why they sell few treaded tires. Yeah, if you are gravel riding and not going fast enough to get a little sideways they are great (in the dry).

For gravel (non competitive), Personally I run 90% slicks in the summer. In the winter I have tread because I want to be able to catch my bike when it starts to go sideways.

I think a big part of his advantage was flotation in the straight sand sections. The weight disadvantage for me would be significant somewhere around 40mm+
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Old 11-10-17, 11:41 AM
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Originally Posted by chas58 View Post
Interesting read, thanks.

yeah, I took my 60mm slicks mountain biking and obviouslyl they wer a total nightmare if the terrain was just a little bit damp. Forget damp grass or mud.

Interestingly they didn't do great on sandy turns either.

Jan is big on the "tredless thing" and Honest I lean that way too.

What he consistantly misses is that treaded tires slide well. Slicks go down fast and hard. Could he have saved is crash if he had knobs? I know I have been in situations where knobs made all the difference. I even ran knobs on the front and slicks on the back - the rear end obviously gave way in hard turns where sliding was involved.

Fattish tires on straight sand is an unfair advantage. Fattish tires work well if they have the traction (dry course or sand)

He makes a big point of why they sell few treaded tires. Yeah, if you are gravel riding and not going fast enough to get a little sideways they are great (in the dry).

For gravel (non competitive), Personally I run 90% slicks in the summer. In the winter I have tread because I want to be able to catch my bike when it starts to go sideways.

I think a big part of his advantage was flotation in the straight sand sections. The weight disadvantage for me would be significant somewhere around 40mm+
Meh, I think the big advantage he had was sandbagging in Cat 4 45+ after admitting he's raced Cat 3 before. He would have been solidly midpack in Cat 3 45+, so the bike played a pretty minor role
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Old 11-10-17, 12:20 PM
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BTW, his fat tires didn't help him ride the sand

Whereas plenty on 33s like my buddy did
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Old 11-12-17, 10:28 AM
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It makes me sad to see he couldnt ride that bike with fat tires in that sand. I agree with redlube, definetley a case of sandbagging.
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Old 11-13-17, 10:21 AM
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More like sandrunning!

AHA!
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Old 11-13-17, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
BTW, his fat tires didn't help him ride the sand

Whereas plenty on 33s like my buddy did
Maybe it was faster to run? It is in most cases unless you can hit it with a lot of speed.
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Old 11-14-17, 12:54 PM
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Originally Posted by nickw View Post
Maybe it was faster to run? It is in most cases unless you can hit it with a lot of speed.
sure, it could have been for him, but the argument was that his smooth tread fat tired bike was somehow an advantage, whereas I think it was rather he was pushing an agenda.
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Old 11-15-17, 03:58 PM
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
sure, it could have been for him, but the argument was that his smooth tread fat tired bike was somehow an advantage, whereas I think it was rather he was pushing an agenda.
Oh, he has NEVER done that!!!
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Old 11-21-17, 06:39 PM
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Looks like without sandbagging and back on a cyclocross tread didn't treat Jan so well in Sunday's race.
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Old 11-22-17, 08:44 AM
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Now, now... all these posts about Jan are LAME on the face of them. So knock it off. Or start your own jealous wannabe thread.

He's lucky he got to do a race! We have no idea how well he did or if he had a good time at his latest sufferfest. All I know is that I finally get to do one this weekend -- it's been weeks. I'm in withdrawal.

...And if it's not wet it's GONNA BE FILETREADS coz they're faster and awesome! I'd much rather try to use more skill in the corners and enjoy all that free speed and lightness. Actually, I notice that the only extra skill I've had to use has -- like all skill -- been enjoyable. I do try to corner more smoothly. Heck, I was also having issues w my intermediates when I wasn't paying attn while cornering. Also, I enjoy some sliding, but I find when I pay attn that I don't. Sniff.
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Old 12-22-17, 07:48 PM
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I did that race with my Salsa Cutthroat, 2.3" Renegade MTB tires which blow up almost to 2.4" on the i30 Roval Traverse wheels.
Couldn't make it through the 2 sand sections because they turned. Moment there was a turn, all advantage was lost. The disadvantage around every turn due to the extra weight greatly reduced any minor advantage in that short, 10-15ft straight sand pit that pretty much everybody could blow through
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Old 12-23-17, 12:46 PM
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The problem with a 2" tire on super-loose sand is that it can be too floaty to slice through the surface, but not floaty enough to float. Then it just sort of wallows, aimlessly and sluggishly. I use that tire on my gravel bike, it's blazing fast on anything that doesn't break up very badly beneath it, but there's not really any way to get it to behave well on mud or bad sand... it wouldn't really surprise me if it was a significant overall advantage on that particular course.
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