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Rust inside seatstays of a Colnago Master Olympic

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Rust inside seatstays of a Colnago Master Olympic

Old 02-08-20, 10:50 AM
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xavieralexandre
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Rust inside seatstays of a Colnago Master Olympic

As I was prepping the frame of my Colnago Master Olympic for sale, I heard some rust inside the seat stays. Also the vent holes at the bottom of the seat stays show some rust. You can somehow hear the rust here on a short video I did on Youtube: nt5HsNvUhJ8 (Sorry, newbie here, I do not have the rights to post links yet)

I have been riding this bike for about 6 years without any issue but now I'm wondering: Is it a serious issue or can I just ignore it? If I can ignore it, is it sellable (with being transparent about the issue, obviously)?

Such great memories of riding this bike

Last edited by xavieralexandre; 02-08-20 at 10:53 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 02-09-20, 04:14 PM
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Sorry - couldn't find the video.

Do they sell anti-rust products where you live? I would only use ones that are paint safe and apply around the edge of the vent holes and inside the frame. Assuming you have removed the seatpost and bottom bracket, with most frames you can apply it directly into the chainstays, seat tube and downtube. Assuming it's awkward to get inside the frame you could use a syringe and a small piece of tubing. Even a bit of fine oil squirted into the vent holes should help prevent further issues.
There have been several threads on this subject.
https://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-m...shield-t9.html
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Old 02-09-20, 04:24 PM
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Here's your video:

And your Album:
https://www.bikeforums.net/g/user/493077

Post some close-up photos of the vent holes in the stays.

I'm seeing a little rust around the holes, but everywhere else it appears light. Do you see any worms under the paint? Other signs of deep rust?

I'm thinking that some rust stabilization treatment might also trap the loose particles. Then disclose what you've done.
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Old 02-09-20, 07:34 PM
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In my experience, the vast majority of "rust issues", aren't.

If you want to squirt something up in your tubes to arrest it, go right ahead.

I'd like to see some pictures of frames so rusted out that they failed.
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Old 02-09-20, 10:52 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
In my experience, the vast majority of "rust issues", aren't.

If you want to squirt something up in your tubes to arrest it, go right ahead.

I'd like to see some pictures of frames so rusted out that they failed.
Agree, I think it would take quite a long time (in adverse conditions) for a steel frame to rust to the point of being dangerous.
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Old 02-09-20, 11:16 PM
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Many would avoid this frame.



A media blast and powder coat later:

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Old 02-10-20, 01:32 PM
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I often hear little bits rattling around in some frames. I just assumed it was little bits of flux or similar. But normally not THAT much. That sounds almost like glass, to be honest, but I can't imagine how glass would arrive inside those stays.

I'll be in Lausanne next month for work. I'll be happy to take this dangerous frame home for inspection!
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Old 02-10-20, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
Many would avoid this frame.
...
A media blast and powder coat later:
...
Looks a lot like my old Colnago... I'm not sure I want to see it bare.

Then, there is this thread.
https://www.bikeforums.net/framebuil...ust-holes.html


I think I've also seen notes of chainstays rusted through.

Unfortunately it is difficult to know exactly what is going on inside of those tubes. The video seemed to indicate a lot of something inside, but it might even be sand. Flux?
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Old 02-10-20, 03:28 PM
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Originally Posted by francophile View Post
I often hear little bits rattling around in some frames. I just assumed it was little bits of flux or similar. But normally not THAT much. That sounds almost like glass, to be honest, but I can't imagine how glass would arrive inside those stays.
Flux, heated to melting, cools off to something that looks and feels exactly like glass. A good, hot water deflux will dissolve it (it's a salt).
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Old 02-11-20, 02:30 PM
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Thank you all for your responses. And for linking to my video and album. I feel better about this rust now. I'm quite confident it is indeed rust as the bottom vent holes show some rust. But I'm not too worried about it after reading your comments. Also, for what it is worth, the seatstays sound ok when knocking them. I feel like improving the situation anyway, since the frame is bare and I have now a relatively good access through the bottom vent holes and the bigger holes at the seat tube intersection. I have some oxalic and citric acids around. I will have a look about locally available (I'm in Switzerland) products for future protection.

I like the Motorex products which is my go to local manufacturing company for grease and lubricants. I think their 466 fluid might fit the bill, it is their anticorrosion waxy protective film motorex.com/en-us/farmer-forest-garden-line/protection-anticorrosion/fluid-466/ and I can buy it locally. It might make a nice 'frame saver'.
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Old 02-11-20, 03:12 PM
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...
...if it were me, and I decided to do something to treat the inside of the seat stays, I'd look for your local equivalent of "rust converter", like this stuff. Then I'd spray it into the tubes using a small plastic straw (like the kind they sell with some spray lubricants). The plastic straw needs to be the right size to fit into your spray nozzle, and that's usually small enough to fit into the brazing relief hole in the seat stays. Youi spray in a lot, then slosh it around to coat the rest of the stay tubing interior. It's some kind of miraculous chemical converter, and it leaves the rusted surface black, more or less sealed off from the air, and paintable (not a concern in your case.) Or buy it in liquid form (not spray), and figure out a way to get it in the stays by injecting it with something.

But I agree this problem is way over sold as a problem.




ABOUT RUSTEX - RUST CONVERTER

RUSTEX is a rust inhibiting coating which converts rusted metal overnight into a rust ******ing, paintable surface. When applied to rusted surfaces, iron oxide (rust) is chemically changed to iron phosphate, an inert, hard substance that turns the metal black. This increases the paint adhesion and durability of the coating.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:27 AM
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After looking at the easily available solutions in Switzerland, I'm going:
  • Evapo'rust to clean rust (Ordered through the Italian reseller Envirem).
  • Motorex 466 as an anticorrosion waxy protective film. Our local equivalent of Weigle's frame saver I think.
  • Seringes to inject solutions through vent holes.

I've also considered removing rust with an acid (Citric, oxalic, phosphoric…) instead of the Evaporust as I had citric and oxalic acid on hand. I liked that I could let the Evaporust soak for long to dissolve all flakes and surface rust without having to worry about dissolving the healthy steel too. From my cursory search evaporust really seems like a distinct product. A bit safer to handle than most acids and easy to soak without worrying about attacking paint or steel.

I've also considered other rust converters. The Swiss equivalent to polymer rust converters and primers is Brunox. I was less convinced by the examples I saw and didn't like the idea of a definitive plastic coating over some remaining rust flakes inside an inaccessible chain stay.

There are also lots of European companies with rust-removal and protection products, targeted mainly at the car restoration market:
  • Germany: Fertan
  • France: Ferose, Restom
  • Another alternative to Weigle's Frame saver / Motorex 466: French Dinitrol. The correct French term for this family of products is: Cire anticorrosive pour corps creux (Antirust wax for hollow cavities). A search with those terms lead to a lot of easily available products.

Last edited by xavieralexandre; 02-15-20 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:32 AM
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Spray some fluid film in there and call it good. It actually performs better than Frame Saver.

https://www.fluid-film.com/
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Old 02-15-20, 06:41 AM
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Originally Posted by nomadmax View Post
Spray some fluid film in there and call it good. It actually performs better than Frame Saver.
Nice, I like that it uses lanolin that I already play with to soak my wool clothes! It is not easy to get in Switzerland though, I will stay with the Motorex wax for this job. If they work it is nice to use locally available products as you can get them cheap, quickly and easily.
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Old 02-15-20, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by gugie View Post
In my experience, the vast majority of "rust issues", aren't.

If you want to squirt something up in your tubes to arrest it, go right ahead.

I'd like to see some pictures of frames so rusted out that they failed.

Top tube on my old 531 '87 Trek 400 rusted through and cracked. I'm pretty sure it spent time as a trainer bike with a previous owner.
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Old 02-15-20, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by dedhed View Post

Top tube on my old 531 '87 Trek 400 rusted through and cracked. I'm pretty sure it spent time as a trainer bike with a previous owner.
That'll buff out.

Would a squirt of framesaver have saved this frame? I'm guessing, no, since it rusted from the outside in?
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Old 02-15-20, 10:46 AM
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Originally Posted by xavieralexandre View Post
After looking at the easily available solutions in Switzerland, I'm going:
  • Evapo'rust to clean rust (Ordered through the Italian reseller Envirem).
  • Motorex 466 as an anticorrosion waxy protective film. Our local equivalent of Weigle's frame saver I think.
  • Seringes to inject solutions through vent holes.
...I've used this Evapo Rust on a few relatively heavily rusted frame projects. It says so somewhere in the literature, but I'll reinforce it. The temperature at which you have the frame and liquid has a marked effect on how quickly it works. Fo me, a couple of days hanging outside in the direct sun with ambient air temps in the 90's (Fahrenheit) takes a couple of days. The first frame I did was earlier in the year, and I finally had to bring it indoors to a heated room. Otherwise, it looked like it was going to take forever.


...before

...after

...filled with Evapo Rust
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Old 02-15-20, 01:52 PM
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The Colnago has chrome... I have seen not too often, but often enough that the liquid in some of the hard to drain tubes, such as seat stays, are not completely rinsed, stuff collects and does damage over time.
I would get a a syringe or similar type tip and flush it out with hot water, heat the frame too, like 140°F along with.
Watch what comes out, collect it in a pan to review.
retest for noise after completely dried.
Framesaver after?
kind of reminds me of what Shnibop went through on his Colnago.
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Old 02-15-20, 06:47 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
Kind of reminds me of what Shnibop went through on his Colnago.
And he ended up having to replace stays on that one.

I had a similar experience in the mid-90s when I picked up a Cinelli Supercorsa frame with what sounded like sand in the stays. The seller assured me it was only flux or a bit of brazing material. I was intending to blast the frame and get it repainted, but the media-blast revealed pinholes on the bottom of both chainstays and the forward-facing portion of both seatstays. There were at least 4 times the number of pinholes compared to the photo earlier in this thread - and some were as big as 1/8". It was ugly, and of course they wanted to cut up the frame - they were NOT going to refinish it for me. I understood completely, and returned the frame back to the seller who refunded my purchase price.

No way I would ride a bike with holes in the stays. Life's too short, you know?

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Old 02-15-20, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by xavieralexandre View Post
I liked that I could let the Evaporust soak for long to dissolve all flakes and surface rust without having to worry about dissolving the healthy steel too.
Just be aware it *will* discolor some waterslide decals. I had it nearly bleach a Columbus fork decal to all-white. I don't think it will impact anything with a clearcoat. I can post pictures of what I'm talking about if you want to see.
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Old 02-16-20, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by xavieralexandre View Post
After looking at the easily available solutions in Switzerland, I'm going:
  • Evapo'rust to clean rust (Ordered through the Italian reseller Envirem).
  • Motorex 466 as an anticorrosion waxy protective film. Our local equivalent of Weigle's frame saver I think.
  • Seringes to inject solutions through vent holes..
if you buy a wallpaper tray, it's a perfect size to hold the frame by the chainstays. You just stick the frame in, fill up the tray, and add a few weights(bottles of water or whatever) to bring the level of evaporate above the top of the chainstays. This allows the product to work on the inside and outside of the tubes at the same time.
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Old 02-16-20, 09:17 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
if you buy a wallpaper tray, it's a perfect size .....
+1. Just set the frame in the tray. Rotate it around and you can do the whole bike except the seat tube.

I now recommend a test first for the evaporust. Did six frames with no issues but the last (an Italian paint job) had something in the clear or color that created a greenish cast. Had to meticulously sand it out and repaint.
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Old 02-17-20, 12:49 PM
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I have used Evap -o -rust for years .

Works great. As mentioned above...you need to be very careful near any decals. And I would check every 8 hours or so.

I have not used this for any frame. Just pedals, chains, brakes....etc...no painted items

Evap-o- rust is VERY safe, and can be put down the sink with no ill effects.

Good Luck and take your time
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Old 02-18-20, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by 3alarmer View Post
...
...if it were me, and I decided to do something to treat the inside of the seat stays, I'd look for your local equivalent of "rust converter", like this stuff. Then I'd spray it into the tubes using a small plastic straw (like the kind they sell with some spray lubricants). The plastic straw needs to be the right size to fit into your spray nozzle, and that's usually small enough to fit into the brazing relief hole in the seat stays. Youi spray in a lot, then slosh it around to coat the rest of the stay tubing interior. It's some kind of miraculous chemical converter, and it leaves the rusted surface black, more or less sealed off from the air, and paintable (not a concern in your case.) Or buy it in liquid form (not spray), and figure out a way to get it in the stays by injecting it with something.

But I agree this problem is way over sold as a problem.




I just tried this stuff- no endorsement. not aggressive enough conversion
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Old 02-18-20, 12:10 PM
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A few DIY or home remedies to attack the inside of the tubes is a mix of oxalic acid or trisodium phosphate. Often known in products like TSP. Use it aggressively. For less intrusive and general surface rust removal of the inside of tubes, try full strength white vinegar. When you drain the tubes and see brown liquid, you know its working.

With concerns of ruined external paint and decals, I wouldn't bath the frame. A squirt bottle with small straw that fits the tubing hole is a must.

All tubes are easily accessible to fill and let stand for a day.

The exception is sometimes having a frame with the top tube without any access / call it a port. They can be problematic because of heat cycles and condensation build up through many years. In those cases, I've taken a small drill from the backside and at the seat tube area. Make the hole and fill with your fave solution.

For anti corrosion measures, I use Seafoam products and saturate much as possible, fog the tubes by temporary sealing the holes and openings.
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