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Which spokes for touring?

Old 02-08-19, 05:41 PM
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kjaioqhbkqb
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Which spokes for touring?

I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
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Old 02-08-19, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
I'm 230 lb and touring about 600 mi on a 1980s hardtail MTB. I've got NOS rims and NOS hubs from the era. Which spokes should I choose? I'll be camping, not staying in hotels, so I'll be loaded with camping and cooking gear. I do not have the weight of all of the gear yet.

I was considering Sapim Strong. But I always hear how great Phil Wood's hubs are, so are his spokes exceptional as well?
Sapim Strong, DT Alpine III, Pillar PSR and Wheelsmith DH13 all share similar traits. They have a heavier elbow that increases strength significantly. Ive used the Pillar and Alpine III for a long time. Both are good spokes, although a little more expensive.
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Old 02-08-19, 07:02 PM
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With an 80s hardtail, I assume that means 26 inch wheel and 36 spokes, probably a 2 inch wide tire that gives a good cushioned ride without too much road shock. In that case I would think that a 2.0/1.8 or 1.7/2.0 spoke would also work out ok. But if you are doing off road in rough terrain with that kind of weight on the wheels, then one of the more robust spokes suggested by cyccommute might be in order.

I carry my spare spokes in my seatpost, held in with a wine cork. The cork dried out and shrunk a bit, I wrapped electrical tape around the cork to make it fit tighter.
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Old 02-08-19, 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
With an 80s hardtail, I assume that means 26 inch wheel and 36 spokes, probably a 2 inch wide tire that gives a good cushioned ride without too much road shock. In that case I would think that a 2.0/1.8 or 1.7/2.0 spoke would also work out ok. But if you are doing off road in rough terrain with that kind of weight on the wheels, then one of the more robust spokes suggested by cyccommute might be in order.

I carry my spare spokes in my seatpost, held in with a wine cork. The cork dried out and shrunk a bit, I wrapped electrical tape around the cork to make it fit tighter.
Good idea about seat post storage. I've broken a few spokes which were 1980s 2.0 steel just from daily commuting, so I wanted to go crazy with strength for touring. You nailed it: 26", 36h, and 2.10" tires. I love the ride. I plan on touring on paved roads and occasionally dirt or gravel, but nothing like actual mountain biking.

So what is the benefit of the Phil Wood spokes if any?
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Old 02-08-19, 07:31 PM
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I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm.

Is this a 126 spaced rear dropout bike, or something wider? My errand bike is 135mm rear spacing, but that is a 1994 mountain bike. An 80s bike might mean something narrower with a freewheel?
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Old 02-08-19, 07:40 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm.

Is this a 126 spaced rear dropout bike, or something wider? My errand bike is 135mm rear spacing, but that is a 1994 mountain bike. An 80s bike might mean something narrower with a freewheel?
Yes, it's a Japanese freewheel and steel hub. When the wheel is fastened it's about 135 mm inside from dropout to dropout.
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Old 02-08-19, 08:34 PM
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I don't have derailleurs anymore, but have used WH13 spokes on several IGH wheels. They are UN-breakable IMO.
I would use them on the drive side for sure at least. The DS head is what breaks 90% of the time, as far as I have seen with others.
I have also used DT pro lock brass nipples, cost 3x as much, but are 10 times as good. IMO ... Spokes are not the place to apply good enough.
I ride at 290 lbs total on tour, 8,100 miles so far. MY SA XL-FDD front hub has 24,000 trouble free miles, with 2.3 on both sides..
My Rohloff14 has 32 straight 2.0 DT Swiss spokes that have survived so far.
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Old 02-08-19, 09:38 PM
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
I have also used DT pro lock brass nipples, cost 3x as much, but are 10 times as good.
Good point. I had not thought of the nipple issue.
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Old 02-09-19, 12:23 AM
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CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine. Were using cx-ray spokes on the wheels on our tandem for touring and the are holding up fine. Our rolling weight is 175kg so i think we weigh a bit more. All really thick spokes like Sapim strong, DT Alpine etc do is shift the point to failure to the rim of hub
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Old 02-09-19, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by kjaioqhbkqb View Post
Yes, it's a Japanese freewheel and steel hub. When the wheel is fastened it's about 135 mm inside from dropout to dropout.
At the weight you are looking at, a standard cup and cone freewheel type hub could have a weak axle. If a 135mm hub fits well into the frame, the newer cassette type steel axle Shimano freehubs like a Deore or an older design XT hub might be better. I am running Shimano XT M756, M756A , and M760 steel axle rear hubs on three bikes. A lot of the newer Aluminum axle XT hubs have also been used for touring but I have a strong preference for the older design steel axle hubs that use 1/4 inch ball bearings.

You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.

It is getting harder to find 36 hole hubs that are non-disc that are robust enough for touring. But for your weight, I would not drop down to 32 spokes in back. I think 32 in front which takes less weight is ok, but for rear I think 36 is best.
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Old 02-09-19, 09:33 AM
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I'm a lightweight in comparison, but given you are getting these wheels built, consider some newer rims. My take is that modern rims are a lot stronger than 80s stuff.
someone like cycco or others with wheel building experience and heavier than me can chime in with authority.

I suspect that you could find good prices on 36h modern rims that in the long run, would be worth spending the money on now.
wheel builder competency and expertise is always going to be a big factor here also.
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Old 02-09-19, 10:57 AM
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Personally, I'd use a cassette style hub for the proven reliability. 36h and freewheel strike me as an oximoron if durability is the main focus. Regardless though, before ordering spokes larger than 2.0 be sure your hub supports them. A lot of hubs cap out at 2.0 for the hole size in the flange.
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Old 02-09-19, 11:11 AM
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Originally Posted by geoffs View Post

CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine.
Did you special order them those rims with 36 holes? Looking at lightbicyle website, there's no option for 36 holes in any of their rims.
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Old 02-09-19, 01:09 PM
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Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..






Phil Wood makes a wheel builder's spoke threading machine it also cuts them to desired length , so they get long un threaded spokes (from someone )






....

Last edited by fietsbob; 02-09-19 at 01:18 PM.
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Old 02-09-19, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I was unaware that Phil Wood made spokes. I usually use Wheelsmith DB-14 that are 2.0/1.7/2.0 mm...
PW makes and has sold for many years a spoke machine, which some LBS used to make their own custom length spokes. Sadly nowadays some LBS don't even sell spokes, about all they can do is sell you a QBP distributed wheel, or a complete expensive wheelset.

I second your recommendation of Wheelsmith DB spokes, they are excellent.
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Old 02-09-19, 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
PW makes and has sold for many years a spoke machine, which some LBS used to make their own custom length spokes. Sadly nowadays some LBS don't even sell spokes, about all they can do is sell you a QBP distributed wheel, or a complete expensive wheelset.

I second your recommendation of Wheelsmith DB spokes, they are excellent.
I was aware of the thread cutting machine, I think about six of my wheels have spokes with threads cut that way while I waited for them to cut the threads, the bike shop I bought them at stocked fewer spoke sizes because they could cut to custom length. But the OP implied that they made spokes.

That shop where I had them cut to length moved out of town, thus I now buy my spokes on line.
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Old 02-09-19, 01:32 PM
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Or, another wholesale bike shop supplier built wheelset..

they can be a good deal because all the parts are at the wholesalers cost..

In High summer a small busy shop , which has to survive over the winter from Summer's sales..

With a repair queue, other than a spoke replacement, may not have the time for a custom wheel rebuild , for a week,

so you may get, sold, as it has happened a wheel off a new bike on display,

or a basic repair wheel .... your fancy hub cut out of the wheel for you to mail home ....








.....
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Old 02-09-19, 01:52 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
Did you special order them those rims with 36 holes? Looking at lightbicyle website, there's no option for 36 holes in any of their rims.
they will do a custom layup for an extra $20
standard rim weight is 380g ours weigh 500g
incredibly strong
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Old 02-09-19, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by geoffs View Post

they will do a custom layup for an extra $20
standard rim weight is 380g ours weigh 500g
incredibly strong
Interesting. Thanks.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:08 PM
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[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;20786317]At the weight you are looking at, a standard cup and cone freewheel type hub could have a weak axle. If a 135mm hub fits well into the frame, the newer cassette type steel axle Shimano freehubs like a Deore or an older design XT hub might be better. I am running Shimano XT M756, M756A , and M760 steel axle rear hubs on three bikes. A lot of the newer Aluminum axle XT hubs have also been used for touring but I have a strong preference for the older design steel axle hubs that use 1/4 inch ball bearings.[\QUOTE]

I'm using a steel axle. One has gotten bent before but it was years old (like 20), so I'm not sure if it's an issue (and I never noticed it until I went to service the bearings). But I am riding a lot more now and starting to tour, so it's something I'll keep my eye on. This is an experiment for me too to see if these cups and cones don't pit too soon. I'm happy replacing the bearings as part of maintenance, and even axles sometimes (not really expensive and I have the tools), but the cups are not serviceable as far as I can see. I mean maybe with a Dremel but I'm not sure if after using a Dremel on a cup the hardening is compromised.

I really like the old freewheel stuff from Japan. I have a few NOS just to stare at them

It is true that cassettes or freehubs may be easier and smarter, so I'm open. For now though I will wait to see what happens.

[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;20786317]You mentioned Phil hubs. A friend of mine tours on an older freewheel type Phil hub and he is quite happy with it. That design also overcomes the weak axle problem, thus that would also be a good choice.[\QUOTE]

Does Phil still make those freewheels? I don't know all the terminology, so I don't see them on their site under a freewheel search.



Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
It is getting harder to find 36 hole hubs that are non-disc that are robust enough for touring. But for your weight, I would not drop down to 32 spokes in back. I think 32 in front which takes less weight is ok, but for rear I think 36 is best.
36h in front, high flange. 36h in back, low flange.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by geoffs View Post


CK hubs 36h, lightbicycle RG722 rims and cx-rays
Standard 14/15/14 sapim or DT spokes are fine. Were using cx-ray spokes on the wheels on our tandem for touring and the are holding up fine. Our rolling weight is 175kg so i think we weigh a bit more. All really thick spokes like Sapim strong, DT Alpine etc do is shift the point to failure to the rim of hub
I had not thought of that, but it makes sense.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:33 PM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
I'm a lightweight in comparison, but given you are getting these wheels built, consider some newer rims. My take is that modern rims are a lot stronger than 80s stuff.
someone like cycco or others with wheel building experience and heavier than me can chime in with authority.

I suspect that you could find good prices on 36h modern rims that in the long run, would be worth spending the money on now.
wheel builder competency and expertise is always going to be a big factor here also.
That's probably true. I've looked at Rhyno Lite's and Velocity NoBS, but I think they're ugly. I have not come around (aesthetically) to any modern rims I've seen yet. For one thing I like a 32 mm wide rim and a shiny high polish. Like most I want function and beauty. If I get quick rim failure, I'll look at others, so I'm open to suggestions.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Nessism View Post
Personally, I'd use a cassette style hub for the proven reliability. 36h and freewheel strike me as an oximoron if durability is the main focus. Regardless though, before ordering spokes larger than 2.0 be sure your hub supports them. A lot of hubs cap out at 2.0 for the hole size in the flange.
Yeah, I checked on that first and these 80s hubs apparently can take 2.3 mm spokes. I don't have any pins to double check.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:36 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Lots of them .. My 700c touring wheels, had 40 front , 48 rear*, so, 88 total , 90 if you bring a couple spares ...

* hub, old, Phil Wood, Freewheel,,, 10 years, several multi-month self supported tours 'Across the Pond'..






Phil Wood makes a wheel builder's spoke threading machine it also cuts them to desired length , so they get long un threaded spokes (from someone )






....
Nice. Would like to see it all.
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Old 02-09-19, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I was aware of the thread cutting machine, I think about six of my wheels have spokes with threads cut that way while I waited for them to cut the threads, the bike shop I bought them at stocked fewer spoke sizes because they could cut to custom length. But the OP implied that they made spokes.

That shop where I had them cut to length moved out of town, thus I now buy my spokes on line.

Here's a link to the spokes: Phil Wood & Co.
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