WhyFi

Let me get this straight - all of what you quoted and bolded, with many mentions of safety, is meant to convince me that talk of safety-borne etiquette isn't appropriate?

Bah Humbug

He asked what’s safe and didn’t like the answer (and neither do you). I should start bringing an extra water bottle to spray at people like you guys.

topflightpro

That's fascinating. I'm guessing the fact that the velodromes are indoors is a big factor in that?

Robert A

People I don't know? 60 feet unless overtaking.

I know for a fact that toward the end of a ride, I emit a considerable amount of droplets into the surrounding air.

MoAlpha

I think it's just as important that tracks are oval, so a rider can ride in their own slipstream.

Also relevant is a rule of thumb from sailboat racing: Under moderate conditions the "dirty air" coming off the sails of a boat extends seven boat lengths to leeward. In sailing, drafting is slow.

RChung

I suspect so. The geometry of the track, the banking, and the shape and volume of the enclosing building matter, too. The effect size is small so if we'd been outdoors, we might've attributed it to a random gust of wind or some other noisiness.

upthywazzoo 

Ah cool, the downvote brigade.

Now you're strawmanning? No one ever said you couldn't talk about safety. The important thing to me was that OP had permission from the person/group in order to draft, because without that he shouldn't be drafting even if he and the person in front have all the bike skill in the world. Asking permission is etiquette. The actual act of drafting is not etiquette, it's drafting.

OP did not originally ask if he could. He didn't even ask if he should. What he asked was--what was an effective distance at which he could draft and not crash, because crashing at his age would be a big problem. To you, this is distance is infinity. That's fine by me--catching/spreading COVID is bad, among the other things that can go bad when drafting. We don't disagree here. Where we disagree is you associating my comprehension of OP's question with a refusal to discuss safety and condoning unsafe behavior.

WhyFi

Strawman, eh?

upthywazzoo 

Uhhh yeah? Because a discussion of etiquette (do I seriously have to give you the definition? "The customary code of polite behavior in society or among members of a particular profession or group.") necessarily involves permission, because asking for permission is polite and was extensively discussed in the other thread. No one in here has said you can't discuss safe riding.

WhyFi

Cool. In that case, I'd like to suggest: don't jump on a stranger's wheel.

Wooderson

I only ride on people's wheels that I know on group rides. There are some people that I won't draft behind (they don't ride smooth enough, or they don't communicate hazards properly).

But 'how close?' is an interesting question. I find myself continually closing in to ~2". I have to consciously back off the gas to get to my desired 6"-12". Then before I know it, I switch back to cruise control, and I'm just 2" off again. WTH?

What sucks is when the rider in front of you stands up to hammer.. their bike shoots back about 4" in that instant (relatively speaking), which always creates an 'oh ****' moment. Yes, this is completely my issue, and this is why I try to shoot for a 6" - 12" gap. It just doesn't come naturally to me.

Bah Humbug

He also literally said

so discussions of "could (or should) he hop on a stranger's wheel" are directly on-topic, however much you dislike it.

Of course, he also expected a bunch of back-slapping affirmation of his behavior and ignored the actual feedback, so there's that.

upthywazzoo 

Broken record here. If OP asked for permission and was granted permission, then we have no problems. If he didn't ask for permission and we want to talk about that--then it should go in the other thread. I never said we couldn't talk about whether drafting unknowns is a good idea, from a safety standpoint.

Wooderson

My work commute includes a long stretch of MUP that always has a lot of mamils tooling around on road bikes. It's actually pretty common for people to just jump your wheel after you pass them, and of course, they don't ask and they don't announce themselves. You just sort of realize they're there.

TBH, I don't mind when someone sits on my wheel. It's a little annoying that they don't announce themselves, but it's not a huge deal. I'm not saying it's a good idea, in fact, I'd never do it myself, but I think most of the risk lies with the follower, not the followee.

I'll usually allow it for a few miles, and then I'll end it by slowing or sprinting (usually sprinting).

Bah Humbug

Who died and made you thread king? It's in the OP, and on-topic. You just don't like what you're hearing.

noodle soup

who are you to be telling anyone where something should be discussed?

noodle soup

+1.

You posted while I was still catching up on the drivel he had posted.

WhyFi

You're sounding like a broken record because you're not getting it. You introduced the word "etiquette" and you keep trying to make "jumping on a stranger's wheel" a matter of etiquette... it's not. Not entirely, at least. It *is* wholly a matter of safety, though. Whether or not you ask permission and whether or not it granted, being on a stranger's wheel is not safe - you don't know them, you don't know their habits, being on their wheel is neither smart nor safe.

Bah Humbug

It's aaaaall good!

phrantic09

Further, they don’t know his habits and whether or not he’s going to plow into the back of them when they slow off of their current interval or whatever. It’s just dumb, rude and unsafe.

WhyFi

Maybe he's trying to send the thread careening Karening off the tracks.

big chainring 

In all my years of riding I never ran into a problem. And usually meet some nice people out on the road. They seem to welcome me. Perhaps its my superlative supplesse stylings that win them over. Could be good old Midwestern hospitality. Are most of you guys from the coasts or something? We on the third coast welcome all. Gabba Gabba Hey.

Sy Reene

If I go out for a solo ride, that's kinda what I expect to do.

Wildwood 

I have only read the 1st page, sorry if comment is a repeat.

i understand the drafting thing... good and possible bad.
And by bad, i mean from breach of someone's sensibilities - to a 'crash and burn' for 2 or more - from1 person's .....mistake?!?

BUT

Unless you are training for real speed events or with a team, the typical roadie would do much better (in their individual overall training effort) to learn an efficient Time Trial position.

With exceptions of course, for the dedicated, not casual, cyclist.

Now if I were crossing Iowa in a headwind a reasonable paceline of veteran cyclists looking and behaving safely - i would join. Drafting Distance would depend on the condition of the road and wind dir/spd/gustiness. If you are smart you learn a guy's wheel quickly, but can you simultaneously watch the three ahead if you are that close? Takes more concentration than most of us possess (packed tight) unless you train, train, train.

edit: my comments do not include CoVid concerns. I care. No group ride for me.

re-edit: Paceline Spacing Distance also depends on the paceline speed. Things happen much faster in a 28mph line than a 18mph into a headwind line.

upthywazzoo 

We can both be right. OP and person in front can be elite riders--but that doesn't make it safe. If person in front does not know OP is there, then it is doubly unsafe.