Help with Frame identification.
05-20-23, 10:36 AM
#1
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Help with Frame identification.
I bought this from a post on my Local Craigslist but am unsure what I have. The quality of the materials and workmanship appear top tier. Besides the brakes and (removed by me) crankset it features a nearly full Campy component spec. The Shimano 600 headset with a few extra spacers makes me wonder if the fork has been replaced however its construction appears to match the frame pretty well. While thick the white paint looks pretty good but the green head tube panel does not, logos that once adorned the bottom tube have been crudely removed. The letters “ VC” can be seen under the green paint on the head tube.
Seat post raised to enable mounting in a repair stand.
Campy Dropouts
Very nicely done seat stay bridge and cable guides.
Looks like a serial number under thick paint somewhere.
Dura Ace brakes and 600 levers, possibly later additions? “VC” visible under the paint. Tall headset spacer stack.
Very impressed by this fork crown casting.
27.2 post, English BB threads 126 rear spacing.
Seat post raised to enable mounting in a repair stand.
Campy Dropouts
Very nicely done seat stay bridge and cable guides.
Looks like a serial number under thick paint somewhere.
Dura Ace brakes and 600 levers, possibly later additions? “VC” visible under the paint. Tall headset spacer stack.
Very impressed by this fork crown casting.
27.2 post, English BB threads 126 rear spacing.
Last edited by Nwvlvtnr; 05-20-23 at 01:39 PM.
05-20-23, 11:17 AM
#2
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
-----
the combination of all the braze-ons paired with long dropouts suggests a particular moment in time...assuming finish original
note details such as domed taper tube ends, stamped chain stay stop and undimpled chain stays
Britain and Belgium are two possible national origins
if finish taken to be original a date between 1976 and 1978 might be in order
possible rear spacing may have been reset to the present 126
brake centres appear to be 52mm rather than 47mm
-----
the combination of all the braze-ons paired with long dropouts suggests a particular moment in time...assuming finish original
note details such as domed taper tube ends, stamped chain stay stop and undimpled chain stays
Britain and Belgium are two possible national origins
if finish taken to be original a date between 1976 and 1978 might be in order
possible rear spacing may have been reset to the present 126
brake centres appear to be 52mm rather than 47mm
-----
Last edited by juvela; 05-20-23 at 11:39 AM. Reason: addition
05-20-23, 12:04 PM
#3
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Likes For Nwvlvtnr:
05-20-23, 12:41 PM
#4
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
it is beginning to look like a Belgian national origin
the combination of the chainstay stop and bridges had me leaning that way
now with this pentagonal so-slide pibb Britain is pretty much ruled out
the pentagon is very common on French products, which can be ruled out in this case due to threading, but is also employed some in Belgium, it is generally not employed in Britain
perhaps one of our low countries experts will see a combination of features they recognise...
fabiofarelli Italuminium JaccoW LucasHartong non-fixie
the combination of long dropouts & 52mm brake centres together with the new information that some of the braze-ons are post-manufacture additions moves things back into the earlier seventies for a frame birthday
original rear spacing is likely to have been 120mm
-----
05-20-23, 02:22 PM
#5
Shifting is fun!
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: South Holland, NL
Posts: 11,007
Bikes: Yes, please.
Mentioned: 280 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2199 Post(s)
Liked 4,619 Times
in
1,768 Posts
No bells ringing with me so far, alas.
05-20-23, 02:34 PM
#6
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
05-20-23, 02:57 PM
#7
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 669
Bikes: Especialy Alan, but also Empella, Cascarsi, Gazelle, Bianchi, CJV, Sirocco, Berkers etcetera
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked 997 Times
in
355 Posts
I really don't know what this could be, The C in VC could be 'Cycles'. If that's true is't probably not French or French Belgian but English.
05-20-23, 05:01 PM
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Germany
Posts: 1,090
Bikes: 80s Alan Super Record, 79' Somec Special, 90s Rossin(?) Columbus Ego Triathlon, previously: Bianchi SBX Reparto Corse (stolen) and so on...
Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 391 Post(s)
Liked 813 Times
in
602 Posts
Likes For Lattz:
05-20-23, 11:12 PM
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2019
Location: Netherlands
Posts: 669
Bikes: Especialy Alan, but also Empella, Cascarsi, Gazelle, Bianchi, CJV, Sirocco, Berkers etcetera
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 188 Post(s)
Liked 997 Times
in
355 Posts
Ha ha, thank you, I did not think about that. True.
Likes For fabiofarelli:
05-21-23, 07:45 AM
#11
Disraeli Gears
How about . . . Bob Jackson? Compare to this 1977 in unaltered* state: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131757...57618657366863
Seems to coordinate in most respects that I can see, except that mine has no braze-on cable guides on the BB -- so maybe 1978 or so.
*Well, the photos of it at first link are in "pre-altered" state, though it's altered a bit now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131757...57627515256413
Seems to coordinate in most respects that I can see, except that mine has no braze-on cable guides on the BB -- so maybe 1978 or so.
*Well, the photos of it at first link are in "pre-altered" state, though it's altered a bit now: https://www.flickr.com/photos/131757...57627515256413
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-21-23 at 07:53 AM.
05-21-23, 07:57 AM
#12
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
-----
WOW!
even the chain stay stop, both bridges and no-slide pibb match!
fine work.
-----
WOW!
even the chain stay stop, both bridges and no-slide pibb match!
fine work.
-----
05-21-23, 08:13 AM
#13
Disraeli Gears
It's too easy if you have one in-house ("Hmm, why does that look familiar, I'm sure I've seen it someplace . . ." ;-) You guys who are walking bike encyclopedias amaze me.
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-21-23 at 08:18 AM.
05-21-23, 08:30 AM
#14
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
-----
was thinking "Charles must be drinking the same water as MauriceMoss "
quite surprised to see that JRJ was putting out road frames with only two small braze-ons as late as 1977
-----
Likes For juvela:
05-21-23, 11:48 AM
#15
Disraeli Gears
Here is a thread I started a dozen years ago about my 1977 frame (embarrassed to admit it's still hanging up gathering dust).
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...enovation.html
FWIW, it looks to me that this thread's subject frame has a serial number on the BB shell underside, where the serial (12470) on mine is, so that's a gauge, since BJ did at least use sequential numbering, though no "date code" I'm aware of. BITD BJ would look up in their book when your serial number was, and tell you that much. I don't know if the current owners (Woodrup) still have that info. I do have a set of "original" black letter with gold outlining BJ logotype decals for a frame of that vintage, some of the last the shop had (they'd moved on to the later slanted letter logo many years before) if OP is interested in a "recreation".
When having the frame repainted (locally), the rear brake bridge was replaced with a more modern version with a larger "knuckle" -- my instruction was to unbraze the (slightly crooked) existing one and re-fit/re-braze it, but my esteemed (not being sarcastic) bike surgeon decided to "improve" on it. Other than that, all I added was a set of water bottle braze-ons, since I don't like the bands on the old ones, and I do like chromed band-on brake housing and derailleur cable fittings.
I've attached a couple BJ catalog bits and bobs from 1976 and 1978 (one JPG, one PDF, different years). My frame, and I suspect OP's too, are the lower-end-but still quite satisfactory Gran Prix model, not the deluxe "Nuovo Olympus" (or Olympiad).
If you want to see a really swish BJ "Olympus" frame, do check out Stronglight's Flickr album here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/strong...57606749255200
It has the same black-gold decals mentioned above, on orange.
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...enovation.html
FWIW, it looks to me that this thread's subject frame has a serial number on the BB shell underside, where the serial (12470) on mine is, so that's a gauge, since BJ did at least use sequential numbering, though no "date code" I'm aware of. BITD BJ would look up in their book when your serial number was, and tell you that much. I don't know if the current owners (Woodrup) still have that info. I do have a set of "original" black letter with gold outlining BJ logotype decals for a frame of that vintage, some of the last the shop had (they'd moved on to the later slanted letter logo many years before) if OP is interested in a "recreation".
When having the frame repainted (locally), the rear brake bridge was replaced with a more modern version with a larger "knuckle" -- my instruction was to unbraze the (slightly crooked) existing one and re-fit/re-braze it, but my esteemed (not being sarcastic) bike surgeon decided to "improve" on it. Other than that, all I added was a set of water bottle braze-ons, since I don't like the bands on the old ones, and I do like chromed band-on brake housing and derailleur cable fittings.
I've attached a couple BJ catalog bits and bobs from 1976 and 1978 (one JPG, one PDF, different years). My frame, and I suspect OP's too, are the lower-end-but still quite satisfactory Gran Prix model, not the deluxe "Nuovo Olympus" (or Olympiad).
If you want to see a really swish BJ "Olympus" frame, do check out Stronglight's Flickr album here: https://www.flickr.com/photos/strong...57606749255200
It has the same black-gold decals mentioned above, on orange.
05-21-23, 02:00 PM
#16
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Wow I am very grateful for the information and so quickly at that, I’ll have to post better pictures and more details soon as I plan on taking it apart. I love Disraeli Gears and really enjoy your thoughts and experience covering a large variety of gear changers.
I have a Bob Jackson Tourer that I commute to work on nearly ever day.
It looks like I got my moneys worth here as I only paid $100 for it.
I have a Bob Jackson Tourer that I commute to work on nearly ever day.
It looks like I got my moneys worth here as I only paid $100 for it.
05-21-23, 07:04 PM
#17
Disraeli Gears
I'm not that Disraeli Gears, no huge derailleur collection! I've just always loved the joke that became the album title.
05-21-23, 07:53 PM
#18
Stop reading my posts!
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 12,585
Mentioned: 90 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1444 Post(s)
Liked 1,064 Times
in
788 Posts
I was thinking "British" at first, and mostly due to that "cut-down" fork crown which rang a bell with a handful of Brit marques...but nothing as specific as BJ (for me).
So who make this crown BJ/Bikecology was calling "Rake 16": was it Haden or...?
So who make this crown BJ/Bikecology was calling "Rake 16": was it Haden or...?
05-21-23, 09:15 PM
#19
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Too funny,
I took some simple green to the bottom bracket shell and am able to make out the serial number “11660”.
I took some simple green to the bottom bracket shell and am able to make out the serial number “11660”.
05-21-23, 09:44 PM
#20
Disraeli Gears
I've always thought that the Rake 16 thing referred to the geometry of the fork (blades). The lugset on the Gran Prix is called "Italia" and that, so far as I know, was a Prugnat style. Of course, in the PDF I've posted, it says that the lugset on the (1978) Olympus was Haden, thinner than the Italia? But Stronglight says Prugnat Professional in his description of the orange BJ mentioned above. The fork crown, it seems to me, is the same on Stronglight's orange BJ and my Gran Prix (though his has the tangs on the insides of the blades), and for some reason I thought it was a Bocama, though I can't find a photo of a crown profiled on the outside like the BJs. Certainly the semi-sloping top profile looks like Bocama's, and maybe the BJ shop did that particular decolletage themselves.
Likes For Charles Wahl:
05-21-23, 09:49 PM
#21
Disraeli Gears
I'll venture a guess, then, that your frame is a Bob Jackson somewhere between Stronglight's (starting 10) and mine (starting 12), and that it's a deluxe model with the windowed lugs. As to the spacers on the headset, notice that Stronglight's has some too, on a Campagnolo Record headset, which has a healthy stack. So the fork, I would say, is original to the frame.
Last edited by Charles Wahl; 05-21-23 at 09:52 PM.
05-21-23, 10:04 PM
#22
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Alta California
Posts: 14,273
Mentioned: 415 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3815 Post(s)
Liked 3,345 Times
in
2,182 Posts
I've always thought that the Rake 16 thing referred to the geometry of the fork (blades). The lugset on the Gran Prix is called "Italia" and that, so far as I know, was a Prugnat style. Of course, in the PDF I've posted, it says that the lugset on the (1978) Olympus was Haden, thinner than the Italia? But Stronglight says Prugnat Professional in his description of the orange BJ mentioned above. The fork crown, it seems to me, is the same on Stronglight's orange BJ and my Gran Prix (though his has the tangs on the insides of the blades), and for some reason I thought it was a Bocama, though I can't find a photo of a crown profiled on the outside like the BJs. Certainly the semi-sloping top profile looks like Bocama's, and maybe the BJ shop did that particular decolletage themselves.
crown note -
yes, BOCAMA does offer a similar pattern
theirs is not flat on the front and back the way the subject crown is
this makes me suspect subject crown is likely to be a Haden product
am weak on Haden documents so am unable put model names to their products
-----
Likes For juvela:
05-21-23, 11:09 PM
#23
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,061
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4513 Post(s)
Liked 6,392 Times
in
3,676 Posts
My weak brain had me thinking British at first glance with the wrapover SS caps but would never have ventured a guess based on what little I actually know. 
Likes For unworthy1:
05-22-23, 11:50 AM
#25
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: PDX
Posts: 13,061
Bikes: Merz x 5 + Specialized Merz Allez x 2, Strawberry/Newlands/DiNucci/Ti x3, Gordon, Fuso/Moulton x2, Bornstein, Paisley,1958-74 Paramounts x3, 3rensho, 74 Moto TC, 73-78 Raleigh Pro's x5, Marinoni x2, 1960 Cinelli SC, 1980 Bianchi SC, PX-10 X 2
Mentioned: 267 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4513 Post(s)
Liked 6,392 Times
in
3,676 Posts
