complete bikes ....?
#1
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complete bikes ....?
I started to respond to another thread but thought it would be better to start here from scratch.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
Last edited by Dave Horne; 07-16-14 at 11:59 AM.
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Interesting to know, I guess the definition of "complete bike" differs in the US and the Netherlands. Over here, all that stuff is considered additional accessories, and besides the lights, few people use them, at least where I live. I don't even know a single person with a bell. Have not noticed one since I was a kid.
#3
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I think the 'completeness' of bikes over here is due to the infrastructure created just for bikes. Biking is not necessarily something you do for fun, it's basic transportation. I'll take the bike rather than the car if the weather is good. When I first moved here biking was more for fun. Now that I've lived here for 20 years, it's still for fun but also basic transportation. I've biked to jobs wearing a tux (if the weather was good and the distance not too far).
Racing bikes over here though wouldn't come with lights or even a bell, but you wouldn't expect them to considering their use and the weight issue.
Racing bikes over here though wouldn't come with lights or even a bell, but you wouldn't expect them to considering their use and the weight issue.
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What the stores carry is dictated by what sells. Here in the US is largely road race style bikes. However, if you go into bike stores in larger cities and college towns you'll see many more straight bar bikes with fenders and racks because that's what sells in those environments.
#5
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Despite your impression, most bike sales in the US are for mountain-style bikes. The reason you don't see fenders and lights is that bikes here are for sport and recreation, not for utility. Very few get used for commuting or running errands; so if the weather is bad, the bikes stay home.
#6
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It's a different Market Dave .. Giant ships different bikes to Rotterdam than they ship to Long Beach.
what the regulations require for a transportation bike are more detailed than what the US requires,,
Point of sale accessory sales help make up for the low price of selling stripped down bikes ..
I've seen some NL bike shops stocked pedals off and handlebars turned sideways so they fit more, in smaller spaces.
what the regulations require for a transportation bike are more detailed than what the US requires,,
Point of sale accessory sales help make up for the low price of selling stripped down bikes ..
I've seen some NL bike shops stocked pedals off and handlebars turned sideways so they fit more, in smaller spaces.
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bikes in the US are sport toys. They aren't meant for everyday or utility uses.
Sad, i know. Honestly there is no reason why commuters in US have to shell out 40-50$ just to fit fender for rainy days.
Sad, i know. Honestly there is no reason why commuters in US have to shell out 40-50$ just to fit fender for rainy days.
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Fietsenwinkel.nl - De leukste fietsen van Nederland voor de laagste prijs!
And the models available in the Netherlands seem to be priced competitively to the similar bicycles in the US.
Even so, what's wrong with the majority of bicycles in the US being designed as "sport toys?" Whether you like it or not, that's largely what drove innovation for many things, and cycling isn't an exception.
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1. Didn't you just do this topic?
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cy...tore-like.html
2. I take it you don't build up the bicycles you buy? Rowan and I tend to buy frames ... and the components ... the accessories ... and put them all together. Well ... Rowan puts them all together.
Even when we've purchased a mostly built bicycle (like our tandem), we commence making changes immediately. The saddle and pedals were first. My Marinoni Ciclo is a custom bicycle ... I was measured, I requested certain components and the paint scheme, and the bicycle was built. Then, over the years, I changed just about everything ... adding, removing, changing ... saddle and pedals (of course), handlebar, fork, racks, mud guards, lights, gears, wheels, etc. etc. There isn't much left that's original.
It comes down to personal choice ... I don't necessarily want a bicycle with lights built in because I want to be able to choose lights that will suit my needs. I don't necessarily want a bicycle with mud guards ... I have a love/hate relationship with all the mud guards I've ever used and sometimes I just simply don't want to deal with them. However, if I do want those things, I have the option of getting them.
https://www.bikeforums.net/general-cy...tore-like.html
2. I take it you don't build up the bicycles you buy? Rowan and I tend to buy frames ... and the components ... the accessories ... and put them all together. Well ... Rowan puts them all together.
Even when we've purchased a mostly built bicycle (like our tandem), we commence making changes immediately. The saddle and pedals were first. My Marinoni Ciclo is a custom bicycle ... I was measured, I requested certain components and the paint scheme, and the bicycle was built. Then, over the years, I changed just about everything ... adding, removing, changing ... saddle and pedals (of course), handlebar, fork, racks, mud guards, lights, gears, wheels, etc. etc. There isn't much left that's original.
It comes down to personal choice ... I don't necessarily want a bicycle with lights built in because I want to be able to choose lights that will suit my needs. I don't necessarily want a bicycle with mud guards ... I have a love/hate relationship with all the mud guards I've ever used and sometimes I just simply don't want to deal with them. However, if I do want those things, I have the option of getting them.
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#11
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I build up bikes P/T for the LBS .. . the business models in NL and the US are undoubtedly different
as are the rules on what the bike must have on it ..
If Dave wants to narrow it down to just race bikes , then there is a lot of commonality.
ask at your Friendly Dutch Bike shop what they must comply with when selling a General Purpose Transportation bike.
the feed back would be of intrest
as are the rules on what the bike must have on it ..
If Dave wants to narrow it down to just race bikes , then there is a lot of commonality.
ask at your Friendly Dutch Bike shop what they must comply with when selling a General Purpose Transportation bike.
the feed back would be of intrest
#12
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Thread Starter
I build up bikes P/T for the LBS .. . the business models in NL and the US are undoubtedly different
as are the rules on what the bike must have on it ..
If Dave wants to narrow it down to just race bikes , then there is a lot of commonality.
ask at your Friendly Dutch Bike shop what they must comply with when selling a General Purpose Transportation bike.
the feed back would be of intrest
as are the rules on what the bike must have on it ..
If Dave wants to narrow it down to just race bikes , then there is a lot of commonality.
ask at your Friendly Dutch Bike shop what they must comply with when selling a General Purpose Transportation bike.
the feed back would be of intrest
#13
Banned
A you should know Here that is something that varies state to state..
no reflective tire sidewall requirement no illuminated light requirement, just Reflectors .
and people take those off.
and as you read in the Commuter forum, here, the flashing lights
they all seem to feel needed to keep from being plowed into and too many is never an issue,
are disallowed there .. as is helmet mounted lights , apparently.
no reflective tire sidewall requirement no illuminated light requirement, just Reflectors .
and people take those off.
and as you read in the Commuter forum, here, the flashing lights
they all seem to feel needed to keep from being plowed into and too many is never an issue,
are disallowed there .. as is helmet mounted lights , apparently.
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I started to respond to another thread but thought it would be better to start here from scratch.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
Do not assume that the speed/efficiency obsessed dropped bar bike influence seen and talked about on the BF Commuting list are representative of typical bikes ridden in the U.S. urban environment. Might be representative of the bikes ridden by those commuters who ride road bikes with their club on the weekends though.
#16
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If every thread posted here is a new thread, one that had never been posted, things would dry up pretty quickly, don't you think?
I had started to write what I basically wrote here in response to another thread and then stopped and started a new one here.
I had started to write what I basically wrote here in response to another thread and then stopped and started a new one here.
#17
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That's the first thing I thought, too. What's the matter, didn't you like the answers in the first thread?
I think someone pointed out in the first thread that North Americans are fiercely independent and like to think and make choices for themselves, including what accessories they want, not what is forced upon them. I can't imagine finding a bike that was already kitted out with exactly what I want. There are just too many choices to leave it to someone else. A quick search of MEC for lights returns 100 items! I like that.
I think someone pointed out in the first thread that North Americans are fiercely independent and like to think and make choices for themselves, including what accessories they want, not what is forced upon them. I can't imagine finding a bike that was already kitted out with exactly what I want. There are just too many choices to leave it to someone else. A quick search of MEC for lights returns 100 items! I like that.
When I moved to the Netherlands 20 years ago I was amazed at all the small business vans on the road. They were exactly what I wanted when I lived in the US but they weren't available in the US at that time. I'm a professional musician and I owned two cars when I lived in the US, one for every day use and one for moving equipment. The only vans available for me 20 years ago were the Ford Econoline types and they were too big and had no character.
The small business vans over here are used by the postal service, small businesses, and anyone who needs a cargo area that's not too big. (To have an idea Google VW Caddy or Opel Combo.)
I personally look at lights, reflectors, and bells on bikes as standard fare much like seat belts in cars.
If you want to build a quality bike item by item, Google Koga Signature.
#18
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I started to respond to another thread but thought it would be better to start here from scratch.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
I guess I'm spoiled by living in the Netherlands when it comes to shopping for bikes. I looked at the US web sites for Trek, Giant, and Jensen USA, and the overwhelming majority of bikes aimed at the commuter\urban market had dropped handle bars. Even when they offered a more upright handlebar they were woefully incomplete - no fenders, no lights, certainly no bell, all standard fare over here.
If you walk into a store over here or even shop online, the bikes almost always come complete. (Mine came without pedals but that wasn't an issue for me as the dealer simply gave me a set from another known brand.)
I haven't been in a bike store in the US for four years and all the bikes I saw reflected what I've already described.
There's no question here, just an observation.
That said, I don't what someone else making choices for me based on their biases. Having just been in Amsterdam (flew out Wednesday), I've got to say that I wasn't all that impressed with their bikes. I agree with Machka in that I set up my bicycles to my specifications. Living where I do, I have no need for fenders most of the year and, unlike Machka, I only have a hate relationship with the damned things.
Over the years I have worked my way through the weak generator lights that were available in the 80s to high power halogen battery lights to todays LEDs. I say many bikes in Amsterdam equipped with the same bottle generator lights of 30 years ago. I'd rather have my own lights that I can keep up with the technology rather than rely on 30 year old light systems that were inadequate 30 years ago.
I also notice a lack of rear lights. All the bikes had rear reflectors but no active lights.
I feel the same about racks, saddles and shifting systems.
All Dutch bikes might be equipped with bells but it seems to be the least used item on the bike. Maybe they are just rusted shut. For the 3 days I spent in Amsterdam, I seldom heard a bell used to warn a pedestrian. Most of the time, the bicycles just whizzed around the pedestrians without any kind of warning. At least you could hear the damned scooters.
Finally, there is nothing wrong with using a road bike for commuting. Most of my commutes are done on a road bike with drop bars. I don't have to sit bolt upright to see where I'm going.
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From what I understand, you can't go to a shop and be presented with an array of 100 different types of seatbelts which you can quickly and easily install in your car as your whim changes.
But you can do that with bicycle lights. You can pick whatever type of bicycle light suits you ... or not.
And people have different needs when it comes to bicycle lights. Some people never ride in the dark or in foggy/gloomy conditions. Some people might want a light just in case they end up in those conditions, but the light only needs to last for a couple hours. Some people cycle all night long and want a light that lasts all night long. Some people just want to be seen on the bicycle and don't need a light to see by.
And when it comes to bells, some people like to express their personality with their bells and so they'll select one shaped like an animal or something flashy and pink ... others just like a small plain silver bell.
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In the Netherlands, the Opa and Oma are ubiquitous because they take place of a car, which is expensive. They're rugged, reliable and can carry quite a load. They're heavy but in a country with no hills, they're more than adequate to the role of the family workhorse bike.
#21
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But they are not.
From what I understand, you can't go to a shop and be presented with an array of 100 different types of seatbelts which you can quickly and easily install in your car as your whim changes.
But you can do that with bicycle lights. You can pick whatever type of bicycle light suits you ... or not.
And people have different needs when it comes to bicycle lights. Some people never ride in the dark or in foggy/gloomy conditions. Some people might want a light just in case they end up in those conditions, but the light only needs to last for a couple hours. Some people cycle all night long and want a light that lasts all night long. Some people just want to be seen on the bicycle and don't need a light to see by.
And when it comes to bells, some people like to express their personality with their bells and so they'll select one shaped like an animal or something flashy and pink ... others just like a small plain silver bell.
From what I understand, you can't go to a shop and be presented with an array of 100 different types of seatbelts which you can quickly and easily install in your car as your whim changes.
But you can do that with bicycle lights. You can pick whatever type of bicycle light suits you ... or not.
And people have different needs when it comes to bicycle lights. Some people never ride in the dark or in foggy/gloomy conditions. Some people might want a light just in case they end up in those conditions, but the light only needs to last for a couple hours. Some people cycle all night long and want a light that lasts all night long. Some people just want to be seen on the bicycle and don't need a light to see by.
And when it comes to bells, some people like to express their personality with their bells and so they'll select one shaped like an animal or something flashy and pink ... others just like a small plain silver bell.
I had the option of having my bike equipped with a titanium bell (since my frame is also titanium) but settled for a standard nondescript one.
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Whereas here, seatbelts are mandatory all the time, day and night.
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#23
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Bells though are mandatory day and night.
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Not everywhere.
Not in Manitoba ... https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/h060e.php
(Incidentally, my "here" is not the US)
Not in Manitoba ... https://web2.gov.mb.ca/laws/statutes/ccsm/h060e.php
(Incidentally, my "here" is not the US)
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Last edited by Machka; 07-18-14 at 03:24 AM.
#25
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They are in New Jersey. I have no intention of going state by state, but I'd be willing to make a bet that a bell is required in the US. Go to any state's DOT bicycle site and read what is required.
It would appear bells are mandatory on bikes, the fiercely independent nature of my fellow Americans notwithstanding.
Biking in New Jersey, Regulations, Commuter Information
It would appear bells are mandatory on bikes, the fiercely independent nature of my fellow Americans notwithstanding.
Biking in New Jersey, Regulations, Commuter Information
Last edited by Dave Horne; 07-18-14 at 03:29 AM.