Rolling a Tubular Installed by a Shop. What would you do?
03-02-10, 10:09 AM
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I don't mean to sound rude, but ...REALLY? It only takes 2 things to make sure a clincher is seated properly (assuming both the tire bead and rim bead are undamaged)...first, put a small amount of air in the tube and then go around the tire pushing the bead back with your thumbs and make absolutely sure there's none of the tube "peeking" under the bead. If there is, "flick" the tire with your thumbs a few times until the tube goes up into the tire.
Second, after putting in full pressure, just LOOK at the rim/bead interface. If it's not seated, it'll be pointedly obvious.
Second, after putting in full pressure, just LOOK at the rim/bead interface. If it's not seated, it'll be pointedly obvious.
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03-02-10, 10:14 AM
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I haven't used tubulars in years, but the last tires I used included Continental Sprinter, Vittoria Open Corsa CX and CG, Vittoria Pro L Slick, and some Wolber tire on my track bike training wheels. For clinchers, I used Continental Ultra 2000 and some Corratec tires I got at Interbike. Recently, I have used Continental Grand Prix, Vittoria Rubino Pro. Michelin P2R, and Continental Gatorskin.
Figuratively speaking, smartass 
But seriously, that's one of the things I like most about tubulars. As long as you don't hit any nasty bumps, you're fine. With clinchers, they can leave you riding on the bare rim. I was very happy that the P2R didn't come off the rim during my 40 mph blowout.
But seriously, that's one of the things I like most about tubulars. As long as you don't hit any nasty bumps, you're fine. With clinchers, they can leave you riding on the bare rim. I was very happy that the P2R didn't come off the rim during my 40 mph blowout.
03-02-10, 10:16 AM
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No offense taken. This is a good conversation I hope to learn from. I've personally had trouble keeping the tube inside the tire in the past. Sometimes it wasn't visibly evident, but after I heard what sounded like a gun shot, inspecting the tube told me what I did. I also have a hard time telling when a bead has a kink in it, and when it's just a mark from being folded.
Start doing point number one I described above and that's not going to happen again.
03-02-10, 10:23 AM
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03-02-10, 10:28 AM
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03-02-10, 10:36 AM
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It hasn't been a problem in quite a while, but I will use your thumb flicking suggestion the next time it comes up.
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03-02-10, 10:37 AM
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Remind me of something my grandfather said once: "Flying is very safe. It's how you get back to the ground that's the issue."
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03-02-10, 10:42 AM
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03-02-10, 11:32 AM
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Nobody was even near them when they went down; not sure how anyone heard a pedal scrape. They had at least 2-3 second gap or more on the field nearing the finish. The tire was inflated. I was one of the first to run over there to help. I picked his bike up and saw the tire first hand. He is sure he didn't hit his pedal. Why would that matter anyways? If catching a pedal and jumpping your rear wheel over knocks a tub off, why would you use them? Tubs shouldn't come off that easy.
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03-02-10, 01:01 PM
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Unfortunately we will never know the whole story. I feel terrible for both of my friends that were off the front. My buddy who rolled the tub, took out my other friend as well. Lucky for both of them, they are just a little torn up and sore... and both kept their overall GC of 5th and 4th. Like I said, the worst part is, if they would have taken 1st and 2nd in the crit the time bonus would have put my buddy in 1st or second in GC due to the gap as well, and my other friend in 3rd overall. Unfortunately that is how racing goes.
Fun thread!
Like I stated earlier, I like tubs. I ride clinchers. They are just easier. I have found one big positive with clinchers. I usually bring a few sets of wheels to a race, but I only have one set of really nice deep carbons. If I start getting reading and happen to ride my bike around on the race wheels, get a flat, I can fix it in a few minutes, and I still get to ride my race wheels. If I was on tubs, get a flat right before a race, I would probably end up riding lesser of a wheel like my training clinchers.
I have flatted at over 40mph on clinchers. I didn't go down. It was hairy as hell, but I just kept the bike in control and slowed down very slowly.
03-02-10, 01:34 PM
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tanhalt, I always figured the Tubie to Clincher handling difference was more about profile. Tubies have always been rounder, while a lot of the older Clinchers were more skinny and tall. Many of the newer ones, eg Pro Race 2, are rounder and feel to me more like a tubular when you turn.
Last edited by Voodoo76; 03-02-10 at 01:38 PM.
03-02-10, 01:51 PM
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John, it's unfortunate that they went down but you are way overstating their gap on the field. 1st in the GC was 19 seconds up on Rafe and 26 seconds on Connor. The time bonus for first was 10 seconds so he would have had to win and get 9 seconds on the field. However a win and no gap would have at least moved him to second. if connor won, the 10 second bonus would have moved him to third, but second in the crit was only worth 6 seconds and he would not have moved up in the GC. It is very unlikely that the officials would give a time gap for only a few second lead in the sprint finish. They didn't give me a time gap in the RR last year and I had probably about 5 seconds on the field.
03-02-10, 02:28 PM
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John, it's unfortunate that they went down but you are way overstating their gap on the field. 1st in the GC was 19 seconds up on Rafe and 26 seconds on Connor. The time bonus for first was 10 seconds so he would have had to win and get 9 seconds on the field. However a win and no gap would have at least moved him to second. if connor won, the 10 second bonus would have moved him to third, but second in the crit was only worth 6 seconds and he would not have moved up in the GC. It is very unlikely that the officials would give a time gap for only a few second lead in the sprint finish. They didn't give me a time gap in the RR last year and I had probably about 5 seconds on the field.
03-02-10, 02:34 PM
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tanhalt, I always figured the Tubie to Clincher handling difference was more about profile. Tubies have always been rounder, while a lot of the older Clinchers were more skinny and tall. Many of the newer ones, eg Pro Race 2, are rounder and feel to me more like a tubular when you turn.
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03-02-10, 04:04 PM
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03-02-10, 06:32 PM
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03-02-10, 06:54 PM
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03-02-10, 08:43 PM
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yeah tanhalt, you go "sigh" at my garden hose comment, I guess you have more experince than the chap who made that comment to me.
he was riding on pink dugausts at the time and knows a thing or two about riding fast on bikes. A little bit more in tune with his kit and ability than you'd be.
go ahead, try some and get back to us.
he was riding on pink dugausts at the time and knows a thing or two about riding fast on bikes. A little bit more in tune with his kit and ability than you'd be.
go ahead, try some and get back to us.
03-02-10, 09:42 PM
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I already listed some of the tires I've ridden on. My experience is that all of the tubulars from the cheap Wolbers to the top shelf Vittorias have a smoother transition when cornering. I have ridden with latex tubes on many of the clinchers as well, and I did not notice any discernable improvement in ride quality or cornering... definitely not enough to equal the tubulars. Looking at any cross section of these tires gives me good reason to feel that it's not just in my head. Why you assume I have no basis for my claims is beyond me. I don't know how much racing or riding experience you have, so I don't assume anything about your comments... except the one that is way too vague to contribute to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with me, but respond with actual evidence instead of what seriously sounds like an overly pompous retort.
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03-03-10, 09:51 AM
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That said, tire casings are made with a bias ply construction. Given equivalent casing constructions, the shape that they take under load is going to be equivalently "circular"...it's just a matter of the loading. How the tire is attached to the rim isn't going to affect the shape the rest of it takes when inflated.
Besides, people tend to overestimate just how much of the tire surface they actually use in cornering...in the part that matters, even with the clincher tires with stiffer sidewalls (and thus a "U" shape), the tread has a circular radius to it.
Why you assume I have no basis for my claims is beyond me. I don't know how much racing or riding experience you have, so I don't assume anything about your comments... except the one that is way too vague to contribute to the discussion. Feel free to disagree with me, but respond with actual evidence instead of what seriously sounds like an overly pompous retort.
I probably should have responded to the post that you were responding to...I guess it looks like I'm picking on you. I'm not...I'm just trying to respond to some of the misinformation that's leaking out in this thread.If anyone is interested in learning more about tires in general, here's a few links you might want to peruse:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Tires...vents_226.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...tire__955.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...ube__1034.html
03-03-10, 10:10 AM
#100
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Right...and based on that list, I have to say that you're comparing "apples to oranges". Of the clinchers you have listed, the only one I would consider "decent" performance-wise is the PR2 Race...BUT, that's still a low TPI, vulcanized tread/casing tire. You're comparing them to tires (especially the Vittorias) with casings with MUCH higher thread counts (290 TPI) and with the thread glued onto the casing...oh, and with a latex tube sewn up inside.
That's not surprising...the performance improvement in mediocre tires is still there, it's just not very noticeable with the "butt-O-meter". IME, you don't start actually noticing a difference in "feel" until you start running them in high quality clinchers...you know, ones that are constructed nearly the same as those Vittoria tubulars you ran
Again...apples to oranges. One piece vulcanized tires (like most clinchers) tend to have more rubber in the sidewalls, which gives them a less rounded shape near the beads when inflated. That's not the case with "high end" clinchers that use a casing that's constructed separately from the tread. I don't expect your Gatorskins, for example, to have the same "shape" when they're inflated as you would see with a Vittoria Open tubular (clincher). They're just constructed differently.
That said, tire casings are made with a bias ply construction. Given equivalent casing constructions, the shape that they take under load is going to be equivalently "circular"...it's just a matter of the loading. How the tire is attached to the rim isn't going to affect the shape the rest of it takes when inflated.
Besides, people tend to overestimate just how much of the tire surface they actually use in cornering...in the part that matters, even with the clincher tires with stiffer sidewalls (and thus a "U" shape), the tread has a circular radius to it.
Sorry about that...just having some fun I probably should have responded to the post that you were responding to...I guess it looks like I'm picking on you. I'm not...I'm just trying to respond to some of the misinformation that's leaking out in this thread.
If anyone is interested in learning more about tires in general, here's a few links you might want to peruse:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Tires...vents_226.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...tire__955.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...ube__1034.html
That's not surprising...the performance improvement in mediocre tires is still there, it's just not very noticeable with the "butt-O-meter". IME, you don't start actually noticing a difference in "feel" until you start running them in high quality clinchers...you know, ones that are constructed nearly the same as those Vittoria tubulars you ran
Again...apples to oranges. One piece vulcanized tires (like most clinchers) tend to have more rubber in the sidewalls, which gives them a less rounded shape near the beads when inflated. That's not the case with "high end" clinchers that use a casing that's constructed separately from the tread. I don't expect your Gatorskins, for example, to have the same "shape" when they're inflated as you would see with a Vittoria Open tubular (clincher). They're just constructed differently.
That said, tire casings are made with a bias ply construction. Given equivalent casing constructions, the shape that they take under load is going to be equivalently "circular"...it's just a matter of the loading. How the tire is attached to the rim isn't going to affect the shape the rest of it takes when inflated.
Besides, people tend to overestimate just how much of the tire surface they actually use in cornering...in the part that matters, even with the clincher tires with stiffer sidewalls (and thus a "U" shape), the tread has a circular radius to it.
Sorry about that...just having some fun
I probably should have responded to the post that you were responding to...I guess it looks like I'm picking on you. I'm not...I'm just trying to respond to some of the misinformation that's leaking out in this thread.If anyone is interested in learning more about tires in general, here's a few links you might want to peruse:
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/Tires...vents_226.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...tire__955.html
https://www.slowtwitch.com/Tech/What_...ube__1034.html