Kommisar89

Hi All,

When I last upgraded my '88 Panasonic PT-3500 some years ago I cold set the rear triangle to 135mm and set it up with 9-speed Shimano. Having never used STI, I just swapped the original Shimano 6-speed downtube shifters for 9-speed downtube shifters. It works great but I wouldn't mind another upgrade at this point. From what I'm finding, the cable pull of a Shimano 11-speed road shifter is 2.7mm which just happens to be the same as a Campagnolo 12-speed Ergopower shifter so in theory, if I swap my existing setup for an 11-speed Shimano cassette and rear derailleur and my current downtube shifters for 12-speed Campagnolo Ergopower levers, I should get a functional Shimano system with the Ergopower levers that I prefer. The lever would have an extra position but you wouldn't notice it because the limit screw would stop it from moving any further I thought. Can anyone confirm that that will work? Thanks.

-Derrick

Germany_chris

Are you trying to run the Shimano derailleur?

Kommisar89

Yes, Shimano hub, cassette, and derailleur. Just the Ergopower levers.

alcjphil

If you don't already have the parts on hand this could be an expensive experiment

TiHabanero

Rear derailleur actuation ratio must also be considered.

Kommisar89

Well, that's why I'm asking first. I'm hoping somebody has already done this

Kommisar89

Admittedly my understanding is not complete but this is what I have gathered from my research: the shifter level has a certain cable pull length which in this case is 2.7mm for both 11-speed Shimano and 12-speed Campagnolo. Then the derailleur has an actuation ration which is 1.4 for the Shimano and 1.5 for the Campagnolo. And then you have cog spacing which is different between Shimano and Campagnolo. All of them have to work together. So if I have a Shimano cassette/cog spacing with a Shimano derailleur, those match and the only other piece is the cable pull which is the same. It should work. I'm just hoping someone has done this before or knows of it being done as I don't want to end up as another poster mentioned, with an expensive experiment that doesn't work.

squirtdad

No help for the will it work question (other than when your at at 12 speed the tolerances get really tight)

just curious why 135mm spread as 130 is what road takes (unless it is thru axle)

himespau 

Good luck. I'd love to see the next iteration of Shimergo. At the same time, 11 speed wheels all had the same cog spacing, so couldn't you just use Camagnolo 11 speed ergos and derailleurs and a Shimano cassette/wheel?

Kontact 

If the actuation ratio is the same, it should work. But the left shifter is likely an issue.

Kommisar89

It's a fair question...
1.) Loaded touring bikes are often 135mm today and my '88 Panasonic PT-3500 is a loaded touring bike so I figured bring it up to modern standard.
2.) Most importantly, I already had a set of 700C touring wheels and the spacing was 135mm so I used what I had available to replace the old 27" freewheel setup.

I figured it's 9mm to go from 126 to 135 and that's only 4.5mm per side.

Kommisar89

Hmmm, on my older Campagnolo Ergo levers the left/front is not indexed. Are the newer ones?

squirtdad

thanks was curious..... i did 126 to 135 when I first got in to more in depth bike work.....and knew nothing really. got a durable cyclocross wheel set on ebay deore 135 hubs with cr18 rims.... but I proved the sheldon brown 2x4 method worked great

Kommisar89

I read that method but decided to try a bit different method. I used a threaded rod, two nuts, and two fender washers. I put the rod in where the axle would go with the nuts holding the washers against the inside of the dropouts and just started turning the nuts to expand the rear triangle. It worked perfect. I remember reading somewhere that that could cause it to be uneven but I measured it all when I was done and it was the same on both sides.

I think I remember you from the C&V forum some years back. I had posted about the Panasonic there at the time and about the upgrades so you might have seen it. What I ended up doing was the new 700C wheelset with the 135mm spacing, a 9-speed Ultegra rear derailleur and 13x32 cassette, 9-speed downtube shifters, a sealed cartridge bottom bracket, and a wider, randonneur style handlebar. That allows me to run up to 38mm tires. The other thing I've been considering is crimping the chain stays. Obviously that gets into risky territory there and I wish I could find a frame builder who would be willing to do that. Lots of bikes have crimps in the chainstays for tire clearance but the Panasonic has just has round stays. With just a little bit more clearance I could run 42mm tires. And finally, if I really got a wild hair, I could swap the fork for a disc brake fork and have the bosses brazed on the rear for the disc mounts. The problem I've run into is that there are a couple of frame builders in this area but they don't like to do repair and modification work, they only want to build new frames.

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I changed the original half-step plus granny setup in front from 50/46/28 to a more modern 50/40/26. I kept the original Biopace outer ring just so that it looks like the original.

This is it here (I've since shortened the cables):

alcjphil

I am curious about what parts you currently have on hand for this build. Do you already have the derailleurs? How about the cassette? 11 speed Campagnolo shifters and derailleurs can work just fine on an 11 speed Shimano cassette. I can see, as a person who has a couple of bikes with Campagnolo Ergo shifters why you might like the ergonomics of Campagnolo shifters better. I also have a very nice gravel bike with Shimano GRX shifters. They work very well but it took me most of last summer for my hands to learn Shimano shift

Kommisar89

None at all, this is a purely theoretical exercise at this point

I've never used Shimano levers, only Campagnolo and I really like them. The only reason I was considering 12-speed Ergopower levers is the information I had said they had the same cable pull as 11-speed Shimano. How would the 11-speed Ergopower levers work? Isn't the cable pull different?

Kontact 

If you have to get a new RD, why use a Shimano? Shimano 11 speed derailleurs have a different pull ratio than your old Shimano RD.

I don't know what Campy front shifters are right now, but some of them were no longer "friction" as of several years ago.

himespau 

As long as you've got Campagnolo 11 shifters and derailleurs, all 11 speed (Shimano, SRAM, Campagnolo) use the same cassette spacing. Going Campagnolo shifters/derailleurs, but Shimano (or SRAM) wheels/cassette would give you the ergonomics you like but the wider variety of wheels/cassettes that come from Shimano. As long as you don't mix/match shifters/derailleurs, any set will work with any cassettes.

Kommisar89

Thanks himespau, you made this easy. Looks like I just need to get the 11-speed Campagnolo shifters and derailleur and I'm good to go.

himespau 

The one thing you have to worry about with going that approach is that Shimano 11 speed road cassettes can have a fairly large big cog (which is one reason I've seen suggested for going that way beside the wider variety of options), but some campagnolo 11 speed rear derailleurs have an official capacity of a 32 or 36 T big cog - depending on the model. So you'd have to check which RD you got before doing that. Also, some people go beyond the official capacity and it may work.

Kommisar89

In this case I wouldn't be going larger than 32 or 36, whatever the derailleur can handle.