Kevindale

In the forward to the 1979 book The Custom Bicycle, Kolin and de la Rosa write:

'For instance, many industry people claim that one very famous builder hasn't built a frame in years for the general public. Instead, a small firm builds the frames and ships them to the "builder" without decals. He has someone install his own decals and the public believes they are buying a frame built by one of the recognized "masters."'

It seems like I've read allusions to certain Italian master builders here and there in this forum, but I'm not sure. Who is this master builder, and is this old rumor considered confirmed? Exaggerated? Bitter jealousy?

They go on to add:

'We were able to determine, however, that few individual builders produce more than 300 to 400 frames per year. (This can vary when the "master" utilizes assistant builders or apprentices.) The previously mentioned builder had been producing a similar number until recent years when he met demand for his product by an overnight production increase that numbered in the thousands!'

El Chaba

Colnago.

bulldog1935

Would you rather have a $12,000 frame from a famous frame maker, or a $1200 frame built by an apprentice under his tutelage?

Similar problem in bamboo fly rods. A Bob Sommers rod from the Paul H. Young shop is worth less than a Bob Sommers rod made today, and you might have to wait 5 years to get the latter.

rhm

The practice of farming out custom jobs is widely rumored, and doubtless true in some cases. It is hard to determine the truth of certain rumors. For example, this post caught my eye recently. In Harding's case, there's no reason to think he was in the least secretive about it.

Here's something from Classic Lightweights' entry on Witcomb:
This kind of rumor is not limited to bicycles by any means. Violin makers say the same thing about one another.

himespau 

I'm not even sure it's necessarily a small builder that does the rebranded stuff. It's fun to speculate about and maybe see proof of, but, as long as it rides well, I'm not sure I care. I can say that because my budget is nowhere in the league to be able to afford a bike built by a master.

Wilfred Laurier

A well known Canadian 'master builder' who died a few years back had a reputation for making beautiful custom bikes that were not really that well made. Mine lasted for years, but there is visual evidence of shoddy brazing and finishing.

Most of us have moved on from the 'cult of personality' that would have us believe that brand X is superior to brand Y because of a particular person associated with the company. Mass production of bikes in Asia has been raised to a level that gives us bikes far superior to anything that a 'master builder' could have dreamt of 25 years ago.

A few weeks ago I read a post on another interweb service where someone was lamenting that his late 90s Rockhopper wasn't made in the USA. I have no idea where that person got the idea that any Specialized bike was made in the USA, or why that would even matter.

rhm

Well, yeah. But it all came home to me when I bought an old track bike frame on ebay a few years ago. Obviously repainted, it had stick-on letters saying "Witcomb" on it, which is what led me to the quote above. It was obviously not a Witcomb, nothing like anything Witcomb ever made. It turned out to be a Holdsworth product that was mainly sold as a Claud Butler "Olympic Sprint," also sold as a Freddie Grubb "Veloce," and it's certainly possible that mine had originally had some other maker's name on it.

Kevindale

That's who I thought I'd seen allusions about. Did any of his subcontractors ever make a name for themselves? And I wonder how closely he directed their work? Assuming the rumor is really true.

I would care if I was paying substantially more for a frame because of the hands that crafted it, and because of the history and cache of that builder. To have a bike that was built with the exact same knowledge and passion that built bikes for some of the great riders of yesteryear is something special.

That said, I agree that ultimately, for riding pleasure, it's about the quality of the ride, which doesn't have a 1:1 correlation with who built it.

I think the difference is that, from the sounds of this rumor, the bikes were built offsite (i.e., without much tutelage), but sold as the real deal. Would you rather have a $12k frame that is built in the style of a famous maker, and only carries their decals, or a $1200 frame built by an apprentice to a great frame maker who actually supervised it? The former is, put bluntly, a scam. The latter is probably a very good deal, and the resulting frame may be virtually indistinguishable from a frame built by the master himself.

Yeah, that's a common problem in any field where craftsmanship is prized. People build up a reputation, and then trade on it while they cut corners. I think this is part of the reason the Japanese makers were able to become so prominent -- many of the 'masters' were either coasting, or expanding production beyond their ability to scale. The Japanese came at it from a different direction, with a huge emphasis on quality control and modern mass production techniques, while openly borrowing design concepts from Europe, and adding some innovation of their own.

I think many here still do revere the connection between bike and master builder. It's possible to have a deep appreciation of a hand-crafted bike made using techniques that go back many decades, and also appreciate an affordable, beautifully built and precise bike made using state-of-the-art production techniques in Asia. And I think it's fair to say that for some, the 'cult of personality' and been replaced by a 'cult of company'. Both are probably equally valid, and equally wrong-headed.

The Golden Boy 

I find it oddly ironic that the guy who's named himself after a Canadian politician professes to be ignorant about nationalistic pride.

For every reason to like a builder or a person or a thing, there's an equal if not higher amount of reasons to dislike them. Whether it's hating Trek because they became "the Borg," or someone wearing a Colnago hat cut you off once.

Looking at Sun XCD- it's been hailed as "the new SunTour". But most things are rebadged Merry Sales stuff with just a story about a connection to Junzo Kawai. I'm still going get some of those components- and the "connection" attached to a quality component is enough to sway me.

I know a lot of people like to feel that they make their choices independently, that advertising, branding or product placement have no effect on them. Generally speaking, you get what you pay for. Whether it's a quality object, or a low quality object, or whether it's you getting to associate yourself with what you picture a brand is.

Wileyone 

Canadian 'master builder' why not name the builder? I don't think there will be any Lawsuits pending.

clubman 

Mulholland?

Wilfred Laurier

Not lawsuits I am worried about - he's dead and it's not like publishing his name is 'consumer information' like warning about a fly-by-night in Malaysia. I just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings if they are really attached to their Cyclops.

clubman 

It's rumoured that Mike M did paint other 'lesser' bikes with his uber-geist designs at the expense of the reputation of his own frames. If true, then there's real Cyclops and faux Cyclops out there, sharing those fab paint schemes. Pretty sure Randy J had a real one. No harm, that's been out there in cyberspace for awhile.

edit...well the harm may be the implication that Mike made some bad frames when in reality, he just painted some bad frames. Maybe it was just practice?

Wilfred Laurier

Mine was definitely built by Mike. I believe it was originally a project for the 1990 or 91 Toronto Bike Show. It took a couple decades of abuse. My concerns were primarily aesthetic.

markwesti

I thought this was interesting considering that a lot of stuff is made off shore .
Tested: Colnago C60 | Bicycling

T-Mar

Mike wasn't the only one who did this. It was fairly common practice.

martl

myself and a buddy of mine, who is a very pragmatic thinker and not a bikie, looked at a "De Rosa" brochure once. It had pictures that showed Ugo at a frame jig, holding a torch. My friend commented laconically "i bet they had to throw that frame at the dump after the photo session".

Its a bit like the thing with high class health insurance which guarantees "treatment by the chief physician". Would you rather have your appendix removed by the young, sharp-eyed, sure-handed assistant doctor who performs 100 operations a month, or by an old fart who has vastly superior knowlede and experence, but also has poor eyesight and a drinking problem, and for the last 20 years only did a few of them...

himespau 

That's why, when I lived in Boston, I had my GP stuff done at one of the teaching hospitals associated with HMS. The fact that face contact person was a resident meant (and I'd tell them when I called to make an appointment that I didn't care who I saw), meant I could get in within an hour's notice, but my treatment still got reviewed by someone with a lot of experience (if I wanted an appointment with my actual GP of record, that was a 6-9 month waiting list, but she frequently oversaw the residents, so I'd see her about every other visit anyway).

I guess that means I'd be good with an apprentice's bike, but like I posted above, I'm nowhere near that level of collection. My ~1990 Concorde Aquila was built by some mystery person in a mystery shop in Italy (and got repainted with Concorde's colors before being sold), the late 1980's Voyager I just bought from @ColonelJLloyd was made by some mystery person in Japan, The 1985 T400 I'm building up for my wife was built by another mystery person at Cannondale, and I have no clue who built my 1993 Specialized Sequoia or where it was built. If I were riding high end collectors frames that I'd paid top dollar for, I would probably be a lot more interested, but, for where I am in my life right now, if they ride good and don't break on me, I'm happy.

Wildwood 

Master Builder? Or Master Builder with a few Master Apprentices/Craftsmen?
Also depends on the Decade. Also depends on how the company changes over time.

example: I'm thinking the history of Masi.
Ugo DeRosa mostly got out of production brazing when? But my '86 DeRosa Pro is masterfully constructed as an all-day race bike.

USAZorro

Well I can rest assured that Sir Walter made all my Raleighs himself.

tricky 

It would be silly if they were thinking the quality would suffer, but there is the possibility that the Rockhopper owner wants to support American jobs and keep his dollars here. Not trying to start a political discussion, just saying it's possible.

repechage

Some guys WANT certain subcontractor built bikes.

Wilfred Laurier

I could see that if it were a new bike, but it doesn't make a whole lot of difference for a 20+ year old bike like was being discussed.

I regret, however, that my comment was primarily bike snobbery. Specializeds have never been US made (except for a few of their S-Works bikes BITD) and I was kinda surprised that the person didn't know that.

Wildwood 

Precisely.
I've never owned a bike branded as "Billato".
But I've owned 2 Billato framed bikes and probably ridden a few others.

3alarmer 

..the Gozzi brothers, who put out bikes under their own marque "Rauler", built for Colnago. They also did much of the Colnago pantographing. Rossin started out working for Colnago and eventually went independent.

There are probably others.