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On being SEEN - NOTICED- LOOK!

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On being SEEN - NOTICED- LOOK!

Old 07-01-19, 04:39 PM
  #26  
njkayaker
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Originally Posted by Leisesturm
Kudos. You were very patient with him. More so than I would have been. Why are some cyclists so contrary? I mean ... even if I read somewhere that red flashers blah, blah ... criminy, I go out at night! I've been in cars at night! I SEE for myself that red flashers trump anything else that is lit at night except another red flasher. Or a white flasher. Bottom line: flashing gets more attention than solid. Its not debatable.
I'm more concerned that other people don't get misled.

There was another recent thread where somebody claimed that high-visibility clothing didn't work because it wasn't perfect (there were cases where some people using it still got hit). There was another thread where somebody claimed that black was a high-visibility color.

I was going to mention that real world observations show how well flashers work. (I ride with groups at dusk and pay attention to how different lights perform.)

A flashing rear light is more likely to register as being a cyclist than a solid rear light (which could be confused with driveway reflectors).

While there is an issue with tracking flashing objects, that's mostly irrelevant for rear lights because the light can be recognized much further than tracking is necessary.

Originally Posted by Leisesturm
And, I could be wrong about it but I think Oregon requires f/r flashers to be legal, so regardless of how effective or not one thinks they are, it's a moot point.
I presume you mean that Oregon allows flashing lights but doesn't require the lights to be flashing. Understanding what is better (regardless of the law) is never moot!

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Old 07-01-19, 04:40 PM
  #27  
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Old 07-01-19, 04:40 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by rseeker
The law in my state requires you to use them, at least one front and one rear.
They (likely) require you to use them at night. That is, you aren't required to use them during the day (where they'd be useless anyway).

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-01-19 at 04:48 PM.
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Old 07-01-19, 05:19 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
They (likely) require you to use them at night. That is, you aren't required to use them during the day (where they'd be useless anyway).
That might be true, I'll have to look again.

(I did read the actual text because I didn't want to give police any excuse to ticket me. I was stopped eight times in two years for walking in public -- literally that, sometimes in my neighborhood, sometimes in the areas around it -- and the places I ride put me in the patrol areas of those same guys, so .. I try to run a tight ship. The more that went on the more contentious it got, and I'm afraid they and I aren't friends any more. )

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Old 07-01-19, 05:36 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by rseeker
That might be true, I'll have to look again.

(I did read the actual text because I didn't want to give police any excuse to ticket me. I was stopped eight times in two years for walking in public -- literally that, sometimes in my neighborhood, sometimes in the areas around it -- and the places I ride put me in the patrol areas of those same guys, so .. I try to run a tight ship. The more that went on the more contentious it got, and I'm afraid they and I aren't friends any more. )
The state laws tend not to mention flashing. I've never heard of anybody (in the US) getting grief for using a flashing light.

This copy of the OR laws don't mention flashing. It's poorly written. In one place, it's up to 500 feet (at night). In another, it's up to 600 feet in lawful lower beams (at day??).

https://www.bikelaw.com/2019/04/oregon-bike-laws/

  • Every bicycle must be equipped with a white front facing headlight, and a red rear reflector or light, visible from at least 500 feet when used at nighttime.
  • Every bicycle must have a red reflector or lighting device or material of such size or characteristics and so mounted as to be visible from all distances up to 600 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful lower beams of headlights on a motor vehicle.

Trying to "run a tight ship" is reasonable. (I'd have to have more info about you getting stopped for walking in public before considering what that means.)

(Flashing lights are illegal in Germany.)

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-01-19 at 05:46 PM.
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Old 07-01-19, 09:33 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
.. nighttime only ...
I checked and you're right, here it's nighttime only, front white light and rear reflector required but only at night.


Trying to "run a tight ship" is reasonable. (I'd have to have more info about you getting stopped for walking in public before considering what that means.)
Maybe another time, since this is a bike forum. I thought it was worth mentioning a reason for wanting to be 100% legal when most people get away without being so strict.
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Old 07-01-19, 09:55 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by rseeker
Maybe another time, since this is a bike forum. I thought it was worth mentioning a reason for wanting to be 100% legal when most people get away without being so strict.
No problem.
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Old 07-02-19, 06:52 AM
  #33  
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I used to use leg reflectors. I need to get a set of them again.
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Old 07-02-19, 06:59 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by bakerjw
I used to use leg reflectors. I need to get a set of them again.
These apparently work well. They tend to let motorists recognize that the object is a cyclist. Moving things are like flashing things: they tend to be noticed more than things that are not moving.
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Old 07-02-19, 08:11 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
"Research supports this" but that research might not be relevant to the use being discussed.
Correct, most of the research is related to other slow-moving vehicles on the road. Still relevant to some extent, I think.

Originally Posted by njkayaker
The idea of flashing lights is to be noticeable (conspicuous) from a longer distance. Flashing lights are much more noticeable than solid lights of similar size and power).
Correct, this is certainly the case.
Originally Posted by njkayaker
If the motorist can recognize the object as a cyclist, they can make reasonable estimates of speed and direction.

By the time they need to pass, the headlights should be letting the motorists deal with "travel vectors".
This is the sticky point. There are just to many things we can't rely on. Motorists are adept at noticing, then filtering out in a split second those illuminated objects they judge unimportant. This is a necessity given the lighting pollution in most cities. The other issue is "motion camouflage" where motorists perceive you to stay at some distance and become blind to their approach speed. The key is to be seen, recognised as a cyclist traveling in a specific direction and speed, and then given room when the motorist passes. There is no one configuration of lights that we can be confident in. I don't want to be filtered out so when riding at night and I certainly don't want to wait until the vehicles headlights shine on me.

My recommendation has always been to run multiple lights, some flashing and some solid. I run continuous dyno lights front and rear, augmented in the back with 2 continuous LEDs left and right (about a foot apart), another flashing LED at my saddle, and another flashing LED on my helmet. In front, I augment the continuous dyno headlamp with another continuous LED mounted at the axle. Sometimes I'll use a helmet mounted LED as well. During the day, I just run with the dyno lighting. Does it work? Well, I've only been hit once and that was during the day by a motorist who did see me just fine. I do employ other strategies like lane placement and looming. Looming is shifting left and right in an empty lane to further impress on approaching motorists that I am traveling on the road too, hopefully eliminating "motion camouflage".

No illumination scheme will protect against a drunk or distracted driver so let's all be careful mates!
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Old 07-02-19, 08:30 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Correct, most of the research is related to other slow-moving vehicles on the road. Still relevant to some extent, I think.
Given that slow-moving vehicles commonly use flashing lights (typically, yellow), research on other slow-moving vehicles presumably doesn't show that flashing lights don't work.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
This is the sticky point. There are just to many things we can't rely on.
Nothing is going to be perfect. You have to rely on something (otherwise, you'd never go out).

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Motorists are adept at noticing, then filtering out in a split second those illuminated objects they judge unimportant. This is a necessity given the lighting pollution in most cities.
Cities have their own issues. But even in cities, like NYC, flashing lights are generally fairly noticeable.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
The other issue is "motion camouflage" where motorists perceive you to stay at some distance and become blind to their approach speed. The key is to be seen, recognised as a cyclist traveling in a specific direction and speed, and then given room when the motorist passes.
Flashing lights work better (it seems to me) for being seen and being recognized as a cyclist from a long distance. They don't seem to impair "tracking" much (probably, because when that is necessary, the vehicle is close enough to use other cues). For crossing situations, the rear light isn't doing much anyway (a headlight is going to be more important in that situation.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
There is no one configuration of lights that we can be confident in. I don't want to be filtered out so when riding at night and I certainly don't want to wait until the vehicles headlights shine on me.
Nothing is perfect. No one is suggesting you should wait until headlights shine on you.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
My recommendation has always been to run multiple lights, some flashing and some solid.
I suspect that going overboard just confuses drivers (they might fail to recognize you as a cyclist).

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
No illumination scheme will protect against a drunk or distracted driver...
This isn't true.

Distracted drivers tend to be distracted for fairly short periods (if the periods were really long, they would have already crashed).

Being noticeable for longer distances means you are providing more time to be noticed. That is, you want to be noticeable for a longer period than the period of being distracted.

Unless they crash pulling out, drunk drivers manage to go long distances without crashing into anything. They often manage not to crash into anything at all.

"Protect" suggests that it's "guaranteed to work". Even with non-distracted/drunk drivers, no illumination scheme will be perfect.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 09:00 AM.
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Old 07-02-19, 08:38 AM
  #37  
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Always flashing on the rear light - there's no need to over-complicate it.
  • Flashing red light says "bicycle".
  • Flashing LED lasts longer than steady.
  • I don't care if the driver behind me can tell how fast I'm going.
  • I don't care if he can accurately judge the distance from two blocks away.
  • I want the driver to realize "bicycle ahead", anticipate, adjust his driving. The more time he has to do that, the better.
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Old 07-02-19, 08:49 AM
  #38  
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Peripheral vision is more sensitive to motion and flickering than central vision. This is a fairly well documented physiological characteristic of human eyesight. And it can be used to a cyclist's advantage in being seen.

A distracted driver may be looking away, or may be concentrating on a cell phone or dashboard navigation / entertainment system. Flickering and motion may well be the one thing this driver needs to become aware of a cyclist.

My bikes both have Cygolite HotShot tail lights (Pro 150, and 100) which I run in a flicker mode that seems to be a good balance between strobe and solid-on. I also have a Planet Bike Bottle Blinky on one bike, and a Brightside Sidelight on the other, both in some form of flicker mode. My headlights are steady-on at night, but at dusk I run them in strobe over solid mode, and when I'm on a particularly nasty section of road I may even run them in flash mode during the daytime.

About half of my riding is at night. I don't have many close calls. I do occasionally have people shout at me, either just to mess with me, or occasionally to complain about the lights that caught their attention. A few times people have made it a point to complement how well the lights work to make me visible to them.

The side lights address the problem of not being noticed by cross traffic at four-way stops, or by people entering main roads from side streets or parking lots. Since employing them that sort of issue has tapered off to "never happens."
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Old 07-02-19, 08:50 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Given that slow-moving vehicles commonly use flashing lights (typically, yellow), research on other slow-moving vehicles presumably doesn't show that flashing lights don't work.
I was confused by the double-negative, but I think you are saying that nobody is saying that flashers don't provide some advantage. I'd agree, flashers are better than nothing, and do have some advantages over solid lights. The point is that no lighting scheme is "best". Motorists rear-end other vehicles all the time, whether they showing continuous lights or flashers. They run into stopped school buses, they tag lit-up police cars on the side of the road. It's pretty clear that we need some additional technology to improve safety. There was another thread on bike beacons that us RF to signal their presence to cars, are those the answer?

BTW, the one study on lighting that I could dig up today was commissioned by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials to look into how to reduce rear-end collisions with snow plows. Yes, motorists run into those too!.

Here's a link.
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Old 07-02-19, 09:12 AM
  #40  
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When on public streets I use both front and back lights. The rear is always flashing and the front will be set according to the traffic I'm in, although it is usually on it's flashing setting too. I try to be situationaly aware, and when in doubt I will give any vehicle the right of way.

Although I hope it never comes to it, if I'm in an accident and push comes to shove, I want to be able to show in a court of law or to my insurance company that not only was I obeying the law, but I was also taking additional steps in order to make myself visible and alert others of my presence.
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Old 07-02-19, 09:36 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
I was confused by the double-negative, but I think you are saying that nobody is saying that flashers don't provide some advantage. I'd agree, flashers are better than nothing, and do have some advantages over solid lights.
Some people suggest you are better off with solid red lights. I don't think that's true. The fact that flashing lights on common on slow moving vehicles supports that.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
The point is that no lighting scheme is "best". Motorists rear-end other vehicles all the time, whether they showing continuous lights or flashers. They run into stopped school buses, they tag lit-up police cars on the side of the road.
Nothing is perfect. Don't we all know that?

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
It's pretty clear that we need some additional technology to improve safety. There was another thread on bike beacons that us RF to signal their presence to cars, are those the answer?
Beacons might help but they won't be perfect either since people can ignore them (so, they wouldn't be "the answer").

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
BTW, the one study on lighting that I could dig up today was commissioned by the American Association of State Highway and Transportation Officials to look into how to reduce rear-end collisions with snow plows. Yes, motorists run into those too!.

Here's a link.
Not surprising.
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Old 07-02-19, 10:27 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Some people suggest you are better off with solid red lights. I don't think that's true.
Well you can review the available research and also evaluate the thinking behind your perceptions and then decide what strategy to adopt.

The fact that flashing lights on common on slow moving vehicles supports that.
And frequent rear-end collisions to vehicles using flashing lights confounds it.

Nothing is perfect. Don't we all know that?
Which is why we become complacent about real hazards and insensitive to negative outcomes.

Stay safe, mate.
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Old 07-02-19, 11:11 AM
  #43  
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in addition to the on the bike stuff...

Carhartt High viz A parka in over half the year , sweat shirt in the dry season..
reflective bands are bonded into the fabric not sewn on..
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Old 07-02-19, 12:00 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Originally Posted by njkayaker
The fact that flashing lights on common on slow moving vehicles supports that.
And frequent rear-end collisions to vehicles using flashing lights confounds it.
No, it doesn't. It just shows nothing is perfect.

The issue is what is better.

That they still use flashing lights as the standard even though, sometimes, they don't work suggests that flashing lights are better.

(And who knows if it's "frequent".)

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Old 07-02-19, 12:18 PM
  #45  
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This thread makes for a good awareness thread. I just picked up some reflective bands for my ankles for when I commute. I normally run a blinky on the bike and one on the helmet.
Bands are cheap and they do add another component of motion for motorists to see.
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Old 07-02-19, 12:24 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
No, it doesn't. It just shows nothing is perfect.

The issue is what is better.
Nope, the issue is keeping yourself safe. To do that you need to consider all of the factors that affect motorist awareness and develop a strategy to anticipate and minimize hazards. As I've recommended previously in this post, a combination of lighting and other visibility aids is most prudent.

That they still use flashing lights even though, sometimes, they don't work suggests that flashing lights are better.
And since more cars with their brake lights lit up are rear-ended, that suggests that no having no brake lights is better, right!

Stay safe, mate. And don't overestimate the abilities of motorists.
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Old 07-02-19, 12:27 PM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Nope, the issue is keeping yourself safe. To do that you need to consider all of the factors that affect motorist awareness and develop a strategy to anticipate and minimize hazards. As I've recommended previously in this post, a combination of lighting and other visibility aids is most prudent.
No one is saying you shouldn't use a combination of things. Why are are you arguing against a point no one is making?

Talking about flashing versus solid (just that), the fact that, sometimes, flashing doesn't work doesn't mean it isn't better than solid.

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
And since more cars with their brake lights lit up are rear-ended, that suggests that no having no brake lights is better, right!
This is nothing like what I said.

You definitely are not understanding a very-basic thing.

That brake lights are the standard (even if they aren't perfect) strongly suggests that people are better off with them than without (which is what I said about flashing lights on slow-moving vehicles).

Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Originally Posted by njkayaker
The fact that flashing lights on common on slow moving vehicles supports that.
And frequent rear-end collisions to vehicles using flashing lights confounds it.
And since more cars with their brake lights lit up are rear-ended, that suggests that no having no brake lights is better, right!
Congratulations on arguing against your earlier point!

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 07-02-19, 01:22 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker
Why are are you arguing against a point no one is making?
Not arguing, mate, just responding to your rather subjective comments to my original post. I recommend you go back, read, and consider all that has been presented, and then after some thought, do whatever you think is best for you. As you say, nothing's perfect.

Stay safe, friend.
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Old 07-02-19, 01:30 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Not arguing, mate, just responding to your rather subjective comments to my original post.
??? It was a response to the thing you quoted which wasn't a response to your original post.

Last edited by njkayaker; 07-02-19 at 04:09 PM.
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Old 07-02-19, 02:11 PM
  #50  
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On my own bikes, I've got:

Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm
Rear: flashing red, > 50Lm, on a different flash pattern
Front: steady white, > 150Lm
Front: flashing white, > 50Lm
Body: full-size reflective vest (visible front/rear/sides)
Bike: some reflective wrap "tape" on the stays and fork
Bike: 'standard' single reflector on front spokes, and one on rear spokes.

About as much visibility as I can achieve, at the given output.

The reflective wrap tape is probably overkill, but I've found it makes a difference from a variety of angles, when approaching the bike at night. The car's headlights quite clearly light up the bike's stays/fork.

Haven't had but one car some anywhere near close to me, from behind, in the 24mos I have been riding this "lit up."

Can't say I know what "research" says on the matter. But in my own moderate testing of the bike's visibility while at night, it's hard to miss. No guarantees, but I feel much better with that much visibility. It'll take someone completely disinterested in any impediments on the road to miss the obvious signs there's a bike+rider there.
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