jefnvk

For you, anything!

dddd

I can't predict what someone will actually try to steal, but I don't want too much money tied up in any bike that I lock and leave.
Fortunately vintage bike valuations seemed to have returned to normal after the earlier years of "fad pricing" on Ebay, so decent-quality vintage bikes (with DT or STI levers) can be had for little more than WalMart's prices (less in some cases).

New downtube shift levers with premium fine-tooth racheting action are currently being offered under Rivendell branding iir, the best of the best being brought to market for the discerning rider. Marketing commitment in evidence here, even if said market is relatively small.

I'm not saying that STI levers aren't good, I do use them regularly myself, but definitely it is a chore to set up a bike with these versus any kind of downtube levers.
It is good practice to figure out what the minimum lengths are for all of the housings going from the handlebars to the frame are, and this is a process with a good number of steps, so setting up a bike with STI levers definitely takes up a good part of the total time needed to assemble a complete bike.
Those longer cables also often cause problems when for instance the internal routing has the cable exiting any internal guide radii at a tangent, with the wire tending to bow and straighten with changes in cable tension. This proves to never be a problem with downtube levers, no "fussyness" as to what kind of cable wire is used or whether a cable housing is quite new and clean enough to give good shifting performance.
I caution riders with current STI levers to be vigilant in detecting the onset of any hesitation of shifting to the smallest cogs, as this is the first and last symptom of impending cable failure inside of the shifter.

desconhecido 

I was thinking that they log on here to demonstrate their appreciation of irony.

PepeM

Lol, I meant automatics. As in, plenty of people show up with automatic cars, and they are every bit as "enthusiasts" as everyone else out there.

Slightspeed

I've always hated downtube shifters. I started with a Schwinn Continental around 1960. When I started racing as a junior in 1964, my new Legnano came with Campy bar ends and I loved them, still do. I briefly had a Bianchi with Shimano downtube indexed shifters until killed by a car, the Bianchi, not me. By then I had discovered Shimano STi, so when I rebuilt the crashed bike with another frame, I got Sora brifters on sale. Recently I built a 1973 Raleigh Super Course from a bare frame, and went with Suntour bar ends, which I actually like better than my old Campys. Couple of months ago I came across a1978 Peugeot PR10 with Simplex down tube fricton shifters. Out of reflex, I ordered a set of Suntour bar ends from Ebay. I'm actually enjoying the Peugeot DTs, and the Suntours are still on the work bench 4 months later. I guess you could say that DTs have made a comeback, at least in my collection.

jefnvk

I'm halfway considering an automatic Corvette as my track/autox car next spring. Not that I particularly would choose one as my first choice, but dang can you get the autos cheap compared to the manuals, and they aren't that bad running (especially with a shift kit).

And I can guarantee there are plenty of manuals I could smoke in that.

livedarklions

My sense is that stick shift is the wrong analogy to DT shifters. I think DT shifters are vinyl records.

Out of curiosity, what is it you like about the Peugot's DTs? Definitely no wrong answer on this quiz, BTW.

Cl904

OBoile

I still can't believe this is a serious thread. What's next? Getting mad that we have TV remotes and don't have to get up and walk over to the TV to change the channel anymore?

Reynolds 

Of course, progress is moving the less possible. With luck, in the future all bikes will be e-bikes and we won't need to pedal anymore.

livedarklions

You're going to have to define "better" if you're making the claim for CDs. MP3s and YouTube are definitely sacrificing sound quality for compression, CDs, not so much, and definitely higher frequency and dynamic range than vinyl.

Oh, and pop, click, rumble. I like the sound of vinyl, but it's definitely nostalgia talking. I think DT is the same.

mstateglfr 

Boy, musta blown right over those since they arent inherent benefits to DT levers.

1- Of all my bikes, the vintage drivetrain ones have had more downtime than the modern drivetrain ones. But thats just my singular observation. I wouldnt attempt to take my narrow experience and apply it to an entire segment.
All bike shifting and drivetrains can come out of tune thru use. Downtube, bar end, trigger, STI, etc etc. I cant say I have ever had downtime on a bike due to cable STI issues, so I didnt recognize this as an inherent benefit of down tube shifting.

2- STI ergonomics are lightyears better than regular brake levers, at least for me(and it appears many others). I dont know what honking out of the saddle is(i figure thats a mistype, but cant guess what it was meant to be). And there is no placing one's hands forward on the bars to shift- the hands are simply on the hoods so you use your fingers and shift. My 11 year old daughter shifts 3x9 STI without issue from the hoods- there just isnt the excessive reaching you claim. STI can also be shifted from the drops. So I again didnt recognize this as an inherent benefit of DT shifting(or an inherent downside of STI).

3- Um...I am shocked that this is something you think is an inherent benefit of DT shifting. Routing shift cable is simply not difficult. dry run it, cut to length, slide the cable in, tape it down, and route it to the derailleur. It seriously isnt tough. Furthermore, it takes 5-15min(depending on skill/experience) per side and lasts for years. Something that takes up such an insignificant amount of time is hardly worth mentioning as a downside, if it were actually a downside. Once more, I didnt recognize this as an inherent benefit of DT shifting since routing cable housing for STI shifting isnt actually difficult.

4- Crashing a bike brings about potential for damage, regardless of what shifters are used. That isnt a benefit to DT shifting as DT shifting can get messed up too in a crash.

5- Yes STI is typically more expensive. So I guess that is an inherent benefit of DT shifting- cost. Are 11 speed DT shifters even a thing or was 10sp the most? So if anyone wants 11sp, they cant even use DT shifting, but some friction shifters that have enough cable pull to friction shift 11sp do exist. Sweet- thats some tiny window space to get proper shifts in, but I guess thats an option.
Anyways- cost is pretty moot since few people actually build their bikes. Most buy a built bike and replace a component if necessary. Few would ever know that they could save $100 by using friction DT shifters from VO instead of 5800 105 STIs. And Im pretty sure even fewer would want to save $100 to use friction DT shifters. So I guess cost is an inherent benefit of DT shifting?


Interesting talk.
Funny timing as I am going to tear down an '92 Specialized Sirrus road bike this weekend to work on refurbishing it for sale. I have some 2x7 Microshift STIs that will be used. They were $44 a couple years ago and have performed great. Thatll make the bike way more appealing when I list it. The RX100 DT shifters will go to the local collective or be listed for sale here.

Slightspeed

I don't know, honestly. I expected to hate them. Maybe it's the novelty factor after 20 or so years. These are the ones I have:


The front derailleur was broken, and the cable was off when i got the bike ... all fixed now. These seem to shift pretty nice and if you can keep the thumbscrew tight, work pretty well.

I do believe that when riding in heavy traffic, or a large ride group, I prefer bar ends, or even better my Di2, but that's another topic.

dddd

Looking at that lever boss, it kinda looks like someone tried twisting it off with ChannelLok pliers, like they were expecting it to shear cleanly off of the tube?

Sometimes brazed-on bits come off that way, so someone might have expected removal to be easy every time(?).

I'm seeing just one photo though, so not trying to be presumptious by any means.

Meanwhile, it occurs to me one reason why I find a "good working" example of a DT lever bike so appealing. It has to do with the crummy bikes that I started out on, that had poorly-maintained and poorly-chosen components with old cables. So the first time that I rode a well setup bike (a 1985 Cannondale R400 with a good combination of Suntour Sprint friction levers, ProCompe U-6 freewheel and SuperLanner chain), I was sure that road biking would never be the same again for me.
So all these years later, the feel and sound of a well-sorted, friction-shifted geartrain somehow motivates me to ride with enthusiasm.
The equipment that has appeared since then is amazing in it's own right, but just never was as impressive to me as that first ride on that Cannondale.
I don't know how well that it's visible here, but my long-time "gravel" bike even has DT levers , but which are indexed 6s. It makes a good MTB in a pinch and it's only limitation is in how fast it (can't) go over really rough ground (i.e. downhill).

dddd

I can see how you see things so very different than I.

Setting up brifters having external shift cabling on a frame with external cabling requires far less effort than on bikes that are sold today! No stiff shift housings having to make sharp turns and be sized accurately, so again, your view here will tend to be very different from mine.

Your view on crash-damage potential is also completely different from what I have been seeing over the last 25 years. Just look at the bike and think about this, bike hits ground, plastic shifter takes hit.

It might seem optimal for the shifting to be right where your hands rest in easy-riding mode, but when sprinting or attacking steep hills, there is then no hand position further ahead for the rider to lean on. So the compromise here is that a bike with integrated levers often gets set up with an effectively shorter reach so as to make JRA more comfortable. I think that most of today's road frame geometries perhaps try to accomodate today's shorter stem and handlebar reach dimensions by using a slacker headtube angle (so often 72.5 degrees now).
But racers will be using integrated levers in any case, so it is what it is, just as DT levers require their own modification of effort to ride in a sporting fashion.

You said that STI levers are "light years ahead" of "regular levers" in terms of comfort, but are you talking here about 30-year-old regular levers? Today there are many choices in brake-only levers (many are now "fat" like integrated levers).

That your vintage drivetrain was/is less reliable (had "less downtime") sure isn't because the bike it's on has DT levers.
Today's levers having hidden shift wires are known for needing far more-frequent cable replacement to prevent fraying and breaking inside of the lever, but if mileage is kept modest it is frequently seen that the integrated levers gum up and stop working before one's first needed cable replacement.

The added length of shift cable going up to integrated levers is a key reason why such lever's cables need more attention. It's the friction in the cabling and derailer itself that results in greater elastic error along the entire length of the longer cable, so things like housing and bb-guide contamination become very much more critical to maintaining accurate shifting. Again this maintenance might be little-noticed by those putting in less mileage and whose bikes can go years without significant cable deterioration, especially with riders who perhaps ride in cleaner conditions. The added lengths of cable housing (and associated ferrules and stops) also contribute greatly to a reduction of the maintenance interval.

Oh, and "honking" out of the saddle is a very old term which refers to the "sprinting" or hill-attack position "off of the saddle".
A popular accessory in the very old days was a set of "honking rubbers", which were textured and/or flanged tubular rubber cylinders that slipped over the lever body and which were the predecessors of today's "lever hoods".
And "hoods" in those days referred to the then-newer style of lever body ("hooded levers" having a broader hand rest typically made from formed sheet metal instead of the former casting (or mere clamp!), but having no rubber parts whatsoever).

dddd

Good to see evidence of a resurgence in market demand for DT levers, and of the market responding.

A can see urban riders in particular buying these, for instances where one has to lock their deliberately-frumpy-looking and cobbled-together road bike build (and not having a thief come by with a wire cutter and an Allen key, walking off with the bike's entire handlebar ensemble with integrated levers).

Integrated levers are actually quite the extravagance in most cities of the world, so these levers should generate solid sales in foreign markets not just the US.

I could imagine also a universal-fit clamping band that "infinitely" adjusts to more frame sizes and shapes (not that clamping onto the lightest carbon frames would be such a good idea).

Jax Rhapsody

This was an interesting thread. I think the OP might be a bit jaded. I've only had two roadbikes; my Nishiki with DTs and my Roadtech with stem shifters. When I first got my Nishiki and saw where the shifters were, I just used them. I reached down, moved it. The first ride wasn't much, just back to my girlfriends house, so I found a gear to stay in. I got the bike fitted and replaced the pedals(IE; raise the seat and remove pedals that had a toe thing and strap to flats) on it and then I could actually ride and shift. I never thought of any dissadvatage with the DTs. I moved my hand to basically my knee and shifted. It was a 14sp and no need to Torettoshift. I just did it, I shifted it. It never crossed my mind to shift standing up and on hills, I use the sit/low gear, stand/high gear technique, so I shift and then stood and mashed. With the Roadtech, I actually didn't like the stemshifters and sometimes standing made my knee hit the shifter,I could shift both with one hand, and had made a habit of it, but I thought the placement was weird, though I got used to it as quick as with DTs, I didn't like the setup, it felt wrong. I wanted to convert the bike to DT somehow. I rode a brifter bike once; I had seen how they were all the rage and managed to ride one and I loved it, everything in one convenient spot. The only thing I don't like is all the cables... It's too mountainbikey. I expect a mtb to have so much cable exposure, and I clean that up best I can, but I don't expect a roadbike to be that way. And the shift indicators that were on top of the hoods look like the cockpit is just doing too much, making them look bigger and bulkier and ruins what I expecr a roadbike to look like. I think many owners simply make peace with all that with function over form.

I like how clean DTs make a bike look, not many other shifters can claim this. Yeah they can full sweep the gears, but they're basically thumbshifters on a vertical axis, no surprise. Least likely to get damaged during a wreck than other shifters. That's really all that stands out with them, to me. I still have the nishiki frame and I have a fuji frame that uses them. When rebuilt, they'll both have them. They're classic bikes and I don't think they'd look right without them, or some other archaic shifting setup. Even if they were to be restomoded. The only other reason I can think of to use them- and this might even be a cop-out- but the paint won't get ruined with housing wear.

So far; DTs, Brifters, TSs, and thumbies are my faves. Yeah the middle two are better than their grandparents on the ends, but meh. Some like barcons, I'd refuse to ride a bike with them, some like di2, I think di2 is stupid, superfulous, yeah they're like the DCT, manumatic, DSG transmission of bikes, and I'd never buy a bike with it, like I'd never buy any car without a true automatic or manual. I don't care. Give me brifters without the automotive looking guages, that look like regular brake levers, and I'll learn to ignore the array of cables, like I do with MTBs, or give me DTs. Those Gevenale shifters look pretty damn good too.

PepeM

Ah yes. Corvettes have probably the largest speed for your buck ratio. I personally enjoy the slower (and cheaper) cars more, but yeah, can't go wrong with a Corvette, regardless of the transmission.

goldcoastjon

When I started riding derailleur-equipped bikes in 1965 there were no other shifters, to speak of: everyone used DT shifters except for the folks riding three-speeds, coaster-brake-equipped single speeds, and a few tourists who used bar-end shifters. Of course, I learned how to use them and it became automatic. I used DT shifters of all types -- including some of the "newfangled" SIS DT shifters that could also work in friction mode if the adjustments got off -- exclusively for 33 years.

In 1998, I bought a brifter-equipped Eisentraut with a Campagnolo Chorus 9-speed racing triple drive train. It took me a while to learn the new system, of course...just like going from my Phillips 3-speed thumb trigger to my first Campagnolo (Valentino) DT levers. I *did* find that I shifted more often with the brifters literally "at my fingertips" but I don't think shifting more frequently made me any faster.

Fast forward to my first Eroica California (EC) ride in 2015 on a new-to-me Peugeot PX-10 with Simplex Retrofriction DT shifters and a Simplex 460 RD. I had not shifted a friction derailleur or used DT shifters on my bikes since 1998. After only 4 blocks of shake-down ride on the bike, I rode the 40-mile EC 2015 without any shifting problems to speak of: the muscle memory ("indexing in my fingers," as has been posted here) came back almost instantaneously.

Using DT shifters is not as hard or as inconvenient as some posters here have argued--other than riders of tall frames, who have a legitimate issue, IMHO. Neither brifters nor DT shifters will make any cyclist that much faster -- or slower -- but we should probably spend far more energy training than we do arguing about the superiority of one shift lever system over the other.

ClammyChamois

That makes two of us.

ClammyChamois

Back in the day I took the clamp on DT shifters off and put the braze ons on the frame and put the levers from the clamp on DT on them. But then people were handy with tools when I grew up. I also swapped track dropouts for Campagnolo road dropouts on a Gitane track bike to upgrade it to a 5 speed to use for crits.
But after using STI... I never looked back. I have a retro bike for fun, but would never take it out on a serious ride like Como Street... It's nice for a memory ride like a ride on the old time trial course of my youth or a gathering of old crypt keeper riders as they look at it and remember their youth.

I'm currently building a nice 6 speed friction shifted Italian stallion. I don't expect to see it anyplace on a modern bike mage or website as it's more suited to the Classic Rendezvous website. A curiosity like looking at a Model A. It has it's place but not in a modern peloton.

The wrong wheels, I just color matched the fork. It gets 36 spoke wheels. All threading is Italian including the freewheel.... DT shifters as this is a period piece, not a serious machine.

dddd

It looks like a serious effort on your part getting this classic back on the road in style!

And it seems like it could be a quite-serious bike for training rides or club rides, so long as your shifting apparatus, chain and freewheel are carefully chosen.

I've known stronger riders to show up for such rides on SINGLESPEED bikes after all, and with some added effort were able to finish with the group in not-very-flat foothills riding.

So this reminds me of how the DT-shifting experience mimics some of the routine of riding a singlespeed bike, i.e. having to get off of the saddle regularly and having to spin at a much-higher cadence at times (when perhaps shifting is less than convenient, and/or when ratio gaps are larger), but isn't this sort of thing known to be good for a rider's skill/tactics development, and strength?

So count me in as one who thinks that regular DT shift riding can offer one more distinct advantage in one's riding arsenal.

So I'm heading out now on my old PX10E war-horse for a pre-rainstorm interval run through the canyon-side neighborhoods in the foothills. I'll be throwing around the retrofriction levers using Uniglide 7s 12-26t freewheel and 52-42t chainrings for an older rider's challenge in steep terrain for an hour or so, maybe check the thrift stores for any roadbike inventory on a round-n-about route home if the weather allows.

LDBenjamin

I agree. The best thing about downtube shifters is they're completely out of the way. My first bike had stem shifters, which were the worst - I'd frequently hit the right shifter with my knee while standing on the pedals on a hill, instantly shifting into high gear. So my next bike with downtube shifters was a huge relief. You do need drop bars however. But the quick response is great. The ones I had could switch from index to friction, which was pretty good too.

ClammyChamois

I have been known to ride a track bike with a fixed gear on the club training rides and also riding the Como Street course. It makes an animal out of you or at least a ruthless savage on a flat road in a paceline. I liked to pull 3 pulls against the second line on the way back home. Being that me specialty was the Time Trial I felt at home on the front running hard. I would also inch up the pace. I was a S.O.B.. It was all for the little extra on race day. The club ride totaled 85 miles for me, 20 miles to the start, 45 with the group and 20 back home. It raised eyebrows when I showed up on the track bike.

I'm not as hardcore at 60 years old. I miss the days of being Superman. (29 inch thighs and kneecaps I couldn't see for the quads, I started my family at 40 years old and slowed down. I still have one in the nest for at least another 4 years.

After the Duranti I have a Colnago. I have the goodies for it. Full Campy 8 speed Ergo. The wheels from that Duranti come apart, the Campafnolo Ypsilon aero rims get anodized black and laced to the polished Campagnolo hubs. I have never ridden a Colnago, but wanted one since I saw one in 1974 and had to control my drooling. THe frame will be black, the bars and stem are black all the Campagnolo goodies will be in high polish. It will be functional eye candy. The frame is a "Super". I haven't had a full Campy bike that wasn't friction shifted until now. I won't know how to act!

I had a Campy rear derailleur get turned to trash on a ride.(1975) Suntour changed the design of all derailleurs to come. The bike shop I frequented used me for testing... The owner said it was the best out there bar none and if I didn't like it he would trade me straight across for a Nuevo Record derailleur. Needless to say I kept the Suntour. I went Japanese ever since, Something I never thought I'd do. So this Colnago will be a reunion of sorts after 38 years. It's not 11 speed, but them I'm no longer racing. It's just a fun machine for around town and will probably be hung like art in my mancave when not in use.. Besides, do you really want a vintage Colnago that isn't full Campy?

I haven't seen a high end Peugeot since the mid 70's. I knew a guy that had one in the classic white with black trim. Nervex lugs will never go out of style.
One day and it's on my bucket list... I must build a frame... It's the only part of a bike I've not fiddled with. I keep looking at buying a sey of Nervex lugs.

https://www.google.com/search?q=Peug...HCdDmRqj1aHQM:

deadzone

I recently decided that I prefer DT shifters over STI for general recreational riding. Originally I got back into downtube shifting from a retro build 80s Bianchi with Campy Record friction that I bought a couple years ago. I enjoyed this a lot but mostly from a nostalgic point of view and to add some variety to my riding. But as a side effect of this I also learned that I far prefer the hand position and comfort of old school levers and handlebars. The bulky STI levers are also a bit of an eyesore in addition to being less comfortable for me. But what really got me hooked was when I tried out Dura Ace 9 speed DT shifters. By far the crispest and cleanest shifting system I've ever used. I really think more people should try DT on their secondary or backup road bike. Also, much like the manual vs. automatic transmission analogy, I like the fact that you have to put some thought into gear changes and anticipate then ahead of time. This is not that big of a deal, competitive racers used these for decades until about 1992.