Hproduguidon

Je n'ai plus de photos car le vélo est au fond du garage depuis une vingtaine d'autres
Le vendeur m'avait assuré que c'était en columbus, la tige de selle 26.6 . Je suis français et je n'ai rien trouvé sur mon vélo donc soit une commande spéciale soit un vélo d'exportation
exporte

1simplexnut

Merci pour les photos supplémentaires. J’ai un garage le même que le vôtre !

T-Mar

The graphics are similar but there are several key differences.. The dropouts are different, There's no front derailleur hanger. I'm not seeing any reinforcing tangs on the seat stay bridge. And of course, there's the big difference in the rear cable brake routing.

T-Mar

That is an excellent match for the 1983-1984 team issue bicycles and team replica bicycles. Note the Simplex dropouts, Simplex front derailleur mount, number peg and of course, the rear brake cable routing.

1simplexnut

Hi T-Mar ,
It is a bit of a puzzle isnt it . ? !

I see the tontonvelo bike does have reinforcing tangs on the seat stay bridge, and the under tube rear cable routing .
The seat cluster on Hproduguidon bike looks to be a good match to the discussed frame .

The campagnolo dropouts and hanger do muck things up though.

All good fun

1simplexnut

Hi - Nice machine !
The finish on the dropouts ( fish tail /mouth ? ) is very distinctive .
Does that rear dropout say Meral on it ?

El Chaba

Yes, the rear dropouts are Meral. This bike came to me with really tired and chipped paint, but it was this color ( night blue) and had all of the decals, etc. When I stripped it, there was no other paint that would indicate that it had been re-sprayed.
I think there was some shared dna among the team Motobecanes, Merals, and possibly the Liberias. Some interesting data points:
I have seen Merals with the stay and fork treatment, I.e. cut at an angle. I have also seen team Merals with the top tube indentation for the rear brake cable. Of course, there is also the fact that many were built with metric Columbus tubing and Metric (French/Swiss) Cinelli bb shells. There is a possibility that Francis Quillon is the common denominator as he was a common source of frames for both team riders and the “team replica” models from manufacturers. He was the head of bike production at Meral ( and later of Cyfac, etc), and he always had a strong preference for Columbus tubing…Who knows at this point?

El Chaba

Here is another curiosity that came with my Team Champion….a “cornulliers”…a small Dogwood section sized for insertion into the base of the steering column. It was intended to avert disaster if the rider somehow broke the column, but it also serves to keep out dirt and moisture. Mechanics fitted these. This one fits well, but is pretty rudimentary in its finish. My Peugeot PRO 10 also has one, but it is very nicely finished and refined.

1simplexnut

Ah ok is that what that is for !
My PRO 10 has one also but it is a nylon? material .
Bit of a moisture trap !

mikestr

OP's bike is quite different from any TC/La Redoute team replica I've seen. They don't have the seat lug with shot-in seat stays, for one thing. Fork crown should be an Arcor cast model with a big "M" imposed. Dropouts should be Simplex or possibly Huret, depending on the year and possibly supply factors. Not Campagnolo. Brazing here is very sloppy--looks completely homemade. No, 26.4mm is not right for a seat post for a French frame of Columbus SL--should be 26.6.

repechage

Marketing by others, jump in to be part of the group.
the 26.4 and Columbus tubing…
Columbus best to my knowledge did not make a metric diameter tube set.
I would reference the bottom bracket shell a bit more for other frames of the era. Motobecane for years employed a group of transverse graduated holes at the bottom of it.
the chainstay end should be referenced too.
most I have seen used a brass fill with a concave surface, angled as presented but this one looks filed flat.
color appears to me a bit lighter in tone.

I suggest reference more

repechage

earlier bike but persistent details

mikestr

Sorry for my ignorance, but what do you mean by "metric" tube sizing? Anything specified in mm would be metric, wouldn't it?

I have two 1980s French bikes in Columbus tubing, one SLX and another SL, one acquired new and the other having one previous owner, and both have a seat tube ID of 26.6mm. My three French bikes made of 531DB both have 26.4mm ST ID. There are other possibilities, of course, such as lighter-gauge tubing, or seat tube honing, creating a bit more room.

repechage

earlier French tubing diameters were 28.0mm for the down and seat tube, 26mm diameter for the top tube.
The Columbus tubing transfer would point to 28.6, expected seatpost diameters of 27.2 or 27.0 for an SL or SP set.
‘Columbus tubing and a seat post in the 26mm’s…. A frame from decades earlier or a subordinate tube set, thicker walled tube.

for a metric (French) tube, 26.4, 26.6 seatpost would be common for a Reynolds or Vitus tube set. Reynolds 753 could yield 26.8, pretty uncommon. And Motobecane got their hands slapped by Reynolds a few years prior to this frame’s probable date. My opinion of French builders is that the tubing transfer is aspirational, not factual.

mikestr

OK, so I'm surmising that 28.6 is actually 1 1/8", and that this spec was devised by Reynolds or some other British firm. Got it.

Your point is that Colombus didn't make tube sets in 28.0mm and that any that took the smaller, 26.6mm seat posts would have thicker seat tube walls? I suppose this is possible, though that seems to suggest that the seat tubes that accommodate the default 27.2mm posts would have been reamed to that size, an extra operation. I guess this can be settled by measurement. Am I understanding you correctly?

Not sure the stickers will tell me anything--they are in French, but I think this is only because the tubes were to be used on bikes made in France. Other significance?

mikestr

I just measured the seat tube OD on my two French bikes built with Columbus tubing. My dial caliper is in inches.



The Motobecane (Columbus SL) 1.111", or 28.2mm. Minus paint thickness of (more or less) 5 mil x 2, yields 1.101, or 28.0 mm.



Peugeot PX (Columbus SLX). 1.116", minus slightly thicker paint (7 mil x2) = 1.102", or, again, 28.0mm.

Columbus certainly made different, metric-sized tube sets for French manufacturers. These frames were built in the 1984-6 time frame.

repechage

Kind of a conundrum, as the featured bike has a Cinelli cast bottom bracket, was not noted to ever be 28.0 sized for the primary tubes, always 28.6.

mikestr

That is notable. However, there was a version of the Cinelli BB shell that bore the designation "France"; this was used on top Motobecanes and Gitanes--possibly others--for a time in the early 1980s. (shown below) It can probably be assumed that it was sized for a 28.0mm seat tube. It's not clear in the pictures of the Team Champion above whether that marking is present. The Cinelli shell seems to have lost some of its appeal for builders in the mid- to late-80s. It seems to have been partly because plastic Vitus-type cable guides became popular, and the cast shells are inflexible, literally, and there is less freedom to nudge the angles. Like cast lugs, these had to be stocked in all the anticipated angles. Perhaps for small-production work this was seen as a hassle offsetting the ease of assembly and elimination of finishing work. Maybe a frame builder or all-around maven like our own Charles "Verktyg" Colerich can comment on this last part.