1989Pre 

On Monday, I am claiming what appears to be a 1963 Claud Butler All Arounder for $100.00. The Nervex lugs on it, while maybe not Professional, are rather nice Legere, with windows. It's a re-spray, but that might not be such a bad thing. I'll have to take an in-person look at the finish. I will probably, at some point, take the cotterless crank off and put a nice C34 or C1000 Williams on it. There is a Shimano Tourney r.d. on it, presently, and that will turn into a Benelux Mk7.
I'll drop some more comments and photos once I get it, and get it cleaned up, but I wanted to get some opinions on the number on the bottom bracket. It looks to me like 2793, which would place it at 1963. Is the location, font and font size consistent with Claud numbers of the period? The dropouts and fork ends would confirm early-60's Grubb or C.B..

juvela

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congratulations on another excellent find

lug pattern is NERVEX 45/159






headset looks to be an Alatet; both Brampton and Thomas D. Cross & Sons Co. Ltd produced sets of the Alatet pattern with the TDC being the more frequently encountered

shall look forward to following along as you build it out with period fittings...


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1989Pre 

Thanks, Juvela! It is an Alatet? Then this will be my first Alatet, which, I think, was top-of-the-line. It's interesting what you said about Brampton and T.D.C. The both produced the Continental model, too (the one on my Grubb is Brampton, probably original)
I think Tom Cross called his the J model, as well. I think the nicer headset on this bike and the Legere with windows (#45) points to an upgrade from the Grubb, which would be consistent with the way Holdsworth marketed the Claud Butlers. We still see the stamped dropouts and fork crown, though, so it would be the least-expensive C.B.
It will also be getting a set of GB Sport calipers, Grande Bretagne bars and Arret levers.

juvela

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NERVEX bottom bracket shell appears to exhibit nozzle cut Nr. 162

dropouts appear to Cyclo

slightly surprised by presence of welded crown

good to read that arrestors from Mr. Burgess be on their way; a Hiduminium stem would be plausible as well

calipers on there now look like they may be second generation Weinmann which would be one year too late for cycle
current arrestor arrangement resembles a canine breakfast with that MAFAC rear hanger on there...

perchance something such as a BIRMALUX pillar and a B XVII might be in order

wonder if present w/b arrangement perpetrated with rivnuts or flame


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1989Pre 

I am a little confused by absence of brazed-on pump pegs under top tube, but I have a feeling we will feel the remnants of them when inspected. Also curious are the water bottle cage mounting bolts on down-tube. Neither are conclusive features, but it does get me wondering (that's all part of the fun).

juvela

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the inverted MAEDA housing stop may be a replacement for a broken braze-on

a Gripfast seat binder would be plausible

you are going to be applying heat to excise w/b so you could add inflator pegs at the same time...

suspect frame may be three-tube 531 plain gauge - does this line up with your knowledge of the range at this epoch?

in the event you elect to fit a propstand it should of course be a Shuresta -

advert of MCMLXII:




advisory: member non-fixie is "Cuckoo for Cocoa Puffs" when it comes to these Sakae Ringyo Apex chainsets with the 86mm BCD. don't let him read the thread or he may fly over from NL to raid your premises...

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oneclick 

Check for a shifter clamp-stop, the Claud Butler I have and all the ones I've seen have a small (~4mm) round t*t at about 5 o'clock on the right side of the down-tube.
I've not seen this stop in that position on any other make.

non-fixie 

Thanks for the heads-up!

non-fixie 

Have a look here, if you haven't done so already: Claud Butler-Holdsworth frame numbers 1959-1976

Nice find, BTW!

1989Pre 

Thanks. I had not read this string.It is very interesting and helpful. Example #3978, on page two, has the same font, font-size and location of number. (I will not be needing that crank-set)

1989Pre 

The cable-housing stop on the chain-stay is Japanese? It looks just like the one on my Grubb. I beg your pardon but what is a "w/b?"

I'll be able to tell the tubing by the seat-post diameter and absence of seam in seat tube, but the only C.B.-owner I have actually conferred-with, who had a model with stamped drops and fork-crown, was under the impression that his was made of Reynolds 'A' Quality 2030. His seatpost, like my Grubb's, was 26.4mm. (I think they gave me a 531 downtube, though, on that bike, just from the sonic difference when chimed.) On the C.B. referenced above, the owner (a Flickr buddy) had it stripped to bare steel and on the n.d.s. chain stay top, about 2" behind the bottom bracket end, was barely-visible: Reynolds. Non-fixie's
Retrobike link chart indicates that if, indeed, mine is a Claud, then it would actually be a 1959. That might help explain why there are series #45 Legere lugs on it, rather than the #48, which were very common toward the beginning of the next decade.
Suresta kickstands are nice, but bite thy tongue! (I will be in the market for a Benelux rod, though).

bikemig 

I'm curious which websites are you using to figure out the date from the serial numbers of your Claud Butler. I have a late 50s Claud Butler Jubilee I'd like to date. I also need to build it. Hopefully this thread will give me much needed motivation!

1989Pre 

The most-recent chart I referred-to is the one supplied by Non-fixie in post #9 of this thread. That chart only covers the Holdsworth years, though. For earlier, you'd need to refer to the one at https://nkilgariff.com/frame-numbers/

1989Pre 

I thought it was an "all-arounder" which was the Challenge model, until I learnt that that one was 531. In 1959, the hi-ten model was the Coureur. This post shows one a couple years newer (the blue bike), with the same fork crown and lugs: https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/.../#post-3241048 Not the best photos, but we are homing-in on a model identification.

1989Pre 

O.k. C.B. Up-date: The frame-set is already at the painters (After several dead-ends, I found an auto-body shoppe that was eager to do it). I'm going to give it the scheme of the '59 Challenge, which is a step up from this bike, but I wasn't too keen on the paint schemes for entry-level Coureur. So, lime green with 8" white seat-tube panel and matching headtube. I asked them if they could paint the windows on the head lugs the contrasting color, and they said yes! This was a really informal, relaxed shoppe, and the owner used to deal in vintage bike parts, but he said something about a fire. The previous owner of this frame-set got it into his head to drill water bottle cage boss holes (just the holes, no bosses) into the down-tube, so they said they would weld those shut and sand them flat for me. They said they were just about to buy some lime-green, as well! It was worth the eight-mile bike ride in jeans with this frame around my neck.
Although the top-eyes, fork ends, dropouts and serial number (on both underside of b.b. and on fork steerer tube)tend to identify this as a 1959 Claud, I can not find a model with this combination of features: Stamped dropouts, pressed fork crown, 26.4 seatpost diameter, no lamp bracket boss, no shift lever boss (no clamp stop either) no pump pegs brazed-on and 72° seat tube (it is stamped on the drive-side of the seat cluster). Frame weight is 2218g w/headset cups.
Fork weight is 775g, Total: 2.993 Kg, so it could only be Coureur, but the features do not mesh, especially the absence of lamp bracket boss since we know the fork is original. The only other thing this could be is a Grubb, but 2793 is not a Grubb number during the Nervex era. Oh, one other thing: No head-badge rivet holes. Anyone out there with an original C.B. with a decal for a head-badge?
I had to saw the Milremo stem in half to get it out. That's too-bad, because I would have liked it. The seat-post was brutal to get out. Someone probably shoved a 26.6 in there. I threw away most of the components, but kept the Super Champion Gentleman wheels with very early Shimano hubs (with the black tension clip over oil port) and the Alatet headset that was stamped Brampton.
With a set of Constrictors on Harden large flange waiting for it, this bike will be a fixed gear. I don't know if I will like fixed gear. To use this wheel-set, I'll have to bring the dropouts in, from 120mm to 110. With tall gears, (52x16 or 50x14), fixed gear might give me a reason to do my own, solo time-trials on the M.U.P. that is almost deserted by October, all the way up to March or April. It is 2.5 miles each way, and almost flat (at least by New England standards). I might share a photo or two when I get it back from the painters' and get the decal set put on, then more clear-coat applied by me.

juvela

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thank you for this update

oh boy, looking forward to seeing those Harden/Constrictor wheels!



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1989Pre 

I would like some Dunlop 27x1" to go on them, because the present set of tyres is early Japanese 1 1/4" for Schwinn, each weighing-in at a "sumo-level" 500g. They do pump-up to 85 psi, though, so it could be worse, and are great training. Not sure if any Dunlops are still road-worthy, especially at-speed.

juvela

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did you get the wheels as wheels or build them yourself from bits?

if bits, were you able to find the Harden hubs in North America or did you send off to the U.K.?

would expect Harden hubs to be quite rare in N.A.


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1989Pre 

Sorry I didn't see your comment/question until now, Juvela. I had to buy the rims and the hubs separately, from Britain, and had them built with 15g double-butted contemporary spokes. I was lucky enough to locate the oblong, convex, dedicated spoke washers for the Constrictor rims, too. Like everything else, they were in Britain.
I'm taking my time on this build and it won't be ready until spring-time, but I am still planning on a fixed-gear track setup for the M.U.P.

Nervex Legere #45 lugs. No lamp bracket boss, no shifter boss and no pump pegs makes this ideal for a track bike.

Someone filled the top-tube braze-on pump peg holes with brass solder.

Harden High flange N.O.S. (was still in its box when I bought it).

26.4 inside diameter for seat post, so probably Reynolds 'A' Quality butted tubeset.

1989Pre 

https://www.retrobike.co.uk/threads/...1#post-3483956