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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 03-27-19, 01:46 AM
  #13176  
gerundium
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
Went out this morning hoping I didn't screw myself by riding too much on Sunday. I definitely screwed myself. Was planning 6x8 w/ 2' rbi. 6 minutes into the first effort I couldn't keep the power. Thought I could maybe get a few 6' efforts but the next one was 20 watts lower 2 minutes in.

What do you guys who ride with plans do when you are way off? Power through at watts minus 30? Abandon, skip, and go to the next one as planned? Or try and shift forward a day and rework the schedule?
Usually if i am still feeling fatigued for a workout i try to do the following things:
- eat some extra high carb foods pre-workout to make sure i don't go in underfueled.
- increase the warmup duration, sometimes a 1 hour endurance spin is enough to sort of ride out the fatigue and get through it.
- pay extra attention to on-bike nutrition.
- start the first interval and gauge how it feels before abandoning all together.

yesterday i did all of this and just hit the wall. planned 3x 8 min efforts just above threshold but i was suffering holding the power 3 minutes into the first interval after already spinning around for an hour. pulled the plug at that point and spinned home with a little loop.

I have the exact same question as you, what to do for the next workouts? take an extra day of rest, schedule the rest of the week as a recovery week, continue as normal? i can just never figure this out.
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Old 03-27-19, 07:15 AM
  #13177  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
Went out this morning hoping I didn't screw myself by riding too much on Sunday. I definitely screwed myself. Was planning 6x8 w/ 2' rbi. 6 minutes into the first effort I couldn't keep the power. Thought I could maybe get a few 6' efforts but the next one was 20 watts lower 2 minutes in.

What do you guys who ride with plans do when you are way off? Power through at watts minus 30? Abandon, skip, and go to the next one as planned? Or try and shift forward a day and rework the schedule?
Once I stop being able to hit my prescribed zones, I abandon the workout, but don't rewrite the plan for the week. So, if I fail a workout on tues, had a rest planned for wed and hard intervals for thurs, I will still do the rest on wed and aim to be ready to really tackle thursday. If I fail thursday, then I'm either getting sick or need to retest my FTP...
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Old 03-27-19, 09:00 AM
  #13178  
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@aaronmcd If I understand your workout goals and strategy, you are mixing reasonably hard leg and back and upper body strength training with high intensity road cycling. When I did that under a coaches supervision, he told me to expect lousy days on the road. Strength training is extremely fatiguing and hangs around for a long time. So goals on the road are more modest with the idea that more power will be generated once the strength training is reduced or eliminated.

Take note what the strength coach said in the paper I posted for you. Racers can wreck themselves in the gym by setting PRs such that long recovery times are needed and they lose several days of training. He is talking about olympians but I suspect racers who are very experienced can push themselves in the gym to a point where they generate a lot of fatigue.

Assuming I have a good plan (not saying yours is not good), that should work, my workouts are over when I can no longer do the efforts. I warm down and go home. I get back on plan the next day and may have a chat with the coach.

If I am generating my own workout plans, pulling them out of my ass based on how I feel and etc, then if I cannot do the workout, I may change it to something else that I pull from the same place as I got the current idea.

But in any case, there is a reason for the failure to execute the workout (not motivation or discipline) and flogging myself with a failed workout and generating even more fatigue when I need recovery generally does not work well for me.
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Old 03-27-19, 09:49 AM
  #13179  
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^
On that note, good lord I'm tired after yesterday's ride. Off day today, I suspect that I may get a lot of sleep tonight, and that my openers for San Dimas tomorrow might just be a mellow commute into work
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Old 03-27-19, 10:28 AM
  #13180  
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I feel like the gym is less fatiguing than riding, but maybe my aerobic conditioning is low. I hit more watts right after deadlift than I did yesterday. I tried again this morning and chicagogal was right I should maybe have skipped. I did a bit more than half the volume, 30 watts short. Yeah, I pulled the workout from the same place I got the original. Hit around 95% so hopefully it's not a waste, and also doesn't perpetuate fatigue.

Riding is weird like that. A ride 3 days ago affecting what I do today, with no way to know until I try to hit numbers. Now I remember that's always what's annoying about bikes - I never know what numbers I can hit until I do it. Lifting is easy. Lift super hard, I still know within 2% what I can do a few days later. If there is a bad day it is known before going to the gym.

Does aerobic fatigue act as muscle fatigue? Like the muscles feel too tired to go faster, but it's really aerobic system failure from a ride 3 days ago? Cuz muscles definitely recover quicker than 3 days...
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Old 03-27-19, 02:20 PM
  #13181  
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Fiesta, road bike 2 sets 5x(3'SST/2' lower tempo). Normal winds and nice day.
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Old 03-27-19, 03:21 PM
  #13182  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
Went out this morning hoping I didn't screw myself by riding too much on Sunday. I definitely screwed myself. Was planning 6x8 w/ 2' rbi. 6 minutes into the first effort I couldn't keep the power. Thought I could maybe get a few 6' efforts but the next one was 20 watts lower 2 minutes in.

What do you guys who ride with plans do when you are way off? Power through at watts minus 30? Abandon, skip, and go to the next one as planned? Or try and shift forward a day and rework the schedule?
For me, its completely situational. Whats the purpose of the workout? Whats the context of the workout?

For example, if I've recently changed TT position and am still using my old FTP number and can't make my thresholdish target, then I'll just forge ahead with the workout at the number I can make as long as I'm in the ballpark. The thought process there being my FTP in the new position is probably lower and even if I'm 5 or 10 watts down on power, I'm still probably accomplishing the goal of the work: time in aero position at threshold. Over time that threshold in the new position will go up and the miss would be more of a true miss.

On the other hand, yesterday I could not hold threshold number on a TT interval, my legs were really sore from the weekend's rides still. But I also knew today was to be a rest day and tomorrow an unstructured JRA ride. It was easy for me to repeat the workout today, and take a rest day tomorrow in lieu of my JRA for tomorrow. But if I really mentally needed the JRA or if I had a couple of tough TT workouts back to back, I would have just aborted the failed workout and not worried about getting in done.

Officially coach says to just skip a failed workout entirely. But I've been working with him long enough now that I typically understand both the intent of an individual workout and also the overall arc of training and where I am. So I modify as intelligently as I can and discuss with coach afterward. So far so good on doing it that way.
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Old 03-27-19, 06:40 PM
  #13183  
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Originally Posted by aaronmcd View Post
I meant cuz you said you got worried on bench press, do you not use the safeties when you bench press? I'd be scared of death also if I benched without safeties! Squatting also. I mean, squatting was pretty scary even with safeties until I failed a rep and just set it down like nothing lol.
Yeah. No safties. The bench I'm on doesn't have those. I bench with no clips and my plan if I ever truly fail a rep is the lean and pray. Weight should slide right off and I'll bash myself on the face as the bar rebounds the other way.

@Hermes, messaged!

My ride yesterday was awesome. Tuesday night race ride and we left from the enve hq. Some of the enve guys joined in so I got to ride with Neil shirley who I've always kinda known about since I got into this sport. My lifting is paying off in my cycling. I feel like I have some snap in my riding for the first time ever in my cycling career. It's awesome. Getting over 900watts and recovering is something I dont think I'd ever done before and I did it like 5 times yesterday.

Felt way better than I thought my fitness was and took a flier to almost "win" the sprint. Dusted neil though

Today legs are tired so just an ex pedal.
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Old 03-28-19, 06:55 AM
  #13184  
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Rode last night after work. Was in a rush to get out and meet up with a group and I forgot my shoe covers..so my feet got pretty cold.

Anyways, managed to take a pretty good pull at the end of the ride right before I turned off to go home. Fitness is slowly starting to creep back, even with only riding a few days a week. Will just be a later start than normal for me
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Old 03-28-19, 08:58 AM
  #13185  
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I'm pretty much in Heathpack's boat as far as biffed workouts go, it depends on various factors and I generally approach each failed workout based on what has been going on beforehand and what is coming up. I failed my workout yesterday, there were 2 really really light days preceding it but also 9 days / 1500tss just before that so I really wasn't sure if my legs were unresponsive due to the easy days (historically many of my failed workouts are due to being too rested), or from fatigue due to the previous week. I switched into openers mode thinking if my legs feel good today I'd just do the workout today instead. I'm feeling pletty bleh though, so I'm probably not even going to ride and will let my legs recover.

I guess my rule of thumb is, if I fail a workout due to being too rested I try again the following day, and if I fail a workout because I'm too fatigued I get in some recovery. It takes experimentation to figure out what works for you though, I think everyone is kind of different. And as stated above there are weird edge cases where you're not quite sure what to do and have to figure it out by just trying something and hoping it works. I probably lost an extra day of training to my decision but it is what it is.

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Old 03-28-19, 12:30 PM
  #13186  
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I've been teetering with this question for a few days now and I need some advice:

In a few weeks the wife and I are going on a Cycling Cruise in Tahiti; I'm super looking forward to it but racing is always on the schedule (not as much as some of you). I really want to do San Luis Rey RR (which work may not allow) and maybe Sea Otter so I will probably make an exception. I've been on the fence about doing crits, hammerfests, and other 'high risk' cycling because I really don't want to break a bone and not be able to cycle on this cruise.

On the other hand, if I actually want to win races this season my best move is to do those events and work on my racecraft. For me that stuff is definitely a tuned thing; the more I do it the crisper and more confident I am out there. I'm not sure if I'm being irrational about all this; getting on a bike period has its risks so its not like I'm totally eliminating the injury variable...
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Old 03-28-19, 03:40 PM
  #13187  
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Started 2nd half of trainerroad sustained power build high volume plan this week. Bumped my ftp to 300 (4.3w/kg) just to see how I can handle it, did a 4x9 workout at 315w today, mostly "good" (incredibly hard) and my form stunk on the last one, but I'll count it as a win, all time best 9min power multiple times.

Can't feel too good about myself, went on a long ride on Sunday with a local guy who totally gave me a run for my money
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Old 03-28-19, 03:51 PM
  #13188  
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@furiousferret My wife and I did the Tahiti Cruise / bicycle race / cycling Tahiti. I do not know if you bought the insurance and I do not need to know. We booked the bet and did not. Our theory is we have to have our A+ game on all the time. Injuries are just not acceptable. It's all bad. We do not do mass start races or group rides per se. Group structured training at the track with a coach okay. Working out with a training partner or partners okay. Timed events are okay.

As significant vacation events approach, we are always reminded each other about having the A+ game on. I think reminding ourselves to stay focused and smart is always good. Having a trip at risk really sharpens the senses and skills due an accident having a more significant impact.

If I had any advice, it would be to make sure the A+ game is always on and critically evaluate races and group rides. I think you know which ones, if any, should be avoided. I would not suggest going negative toward racing but add another layer of risk management to your cycling.

Last edited by Hermes; 03-29-19 at 08:37 AM.
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Old 03-28-19, 04:25 PM
  #13189  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Trading pulls with Thurlow...what’s next trading pulls with Horner?
Shoot, he's just about old enough!

@TMonk, good luck at San Dimas!

Coach re-did my training schedule from the original rest week after a race to some volume but no intensity in order not to aggravate my IT band. I did 2:30 at .78 IF Tuesday, 2:45 at .77 (was supposed to be 3:00 at .75) yesterday, and an endurance pace run for a half-hour today for recovery. IT band has gone from screaming obscenities to muttering incoherently under its breath when on the bike, didn't even whisper on the run this morning. I've been stretching and rolling it and apparently, it's helping. Tomorrow is scheduled to be 2:30 on the bike at .75 IF, Saturday is a rest day and Sunday is 3:30-4:30 on the bike. Don't know what next week holds yet, she'll probably do the training schedule Friday.
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Old 03-28-19, 08:42 PM
  #13190  
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Got out on the mtb today. The way the trail are here it turns into about 40 minutes of tempo to just above sweet spot and the rest is downhill working techy stuff. It's coming back slowly.

Then a new brewery opened a block from my house so I had to go sample some warez. Was a good evening.
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Old 03-29-19, 06:45 AM
  #13191  
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Workouts have been going well. Not holding the VO2 power for full duration yet, but otherwise things are looking up.

Did 75min before the A ride last night solo with a couple efforts, then did the A ride. I pulled a good bit and slayed a hill or two. I could while pulling actually chat a bit and enjoy, things are looking up.

On that group ride story I posted earlier:
I thought more about this one. At the end of the day, my choice to go or not go. But screw those guys. If you're going to run folks in front of cars in turns and go up wrong way sides of island dividers, and pull out from stops in front of oncoming cars splitting the group, or to take a corner faster............screw you. People deserve to get home in one piece and if you're up front you're responsible for making the call, and **** calls were made because people are little snot macho riders. If you're so strong, then keep the group safe at those points in time and drop our asses using your superior power and skills on the other 99.9% of the route. I don't give the behavior a "pass", it's ****. You can hammer without doing **** that might end up with 1/2 a group of dead riders. **** you. It's the same bunch of people that were doing it last year when I went once to that ride, but didn't suffer the poor behavior as long last year as I did not make the "selection".

Last night's ride? Within 5 TSS points per hour of that "hammer ride" out of town anyway. So, was safer by far on my normal group in town and still got the zones and TSS I was out for anyway.
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Old 03-29-19, 06:59 AM
  #13192  
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Originally Posted by furiousferret View Post
I've been teetering with this question for a few days now and I need some advice:

In a few weeks the wife and I are going on a Cycling Cruise in Tahiti; I'm super looking forward to it but racing is always on the schedule (not as much as some of you). I really want to do San Luis Rey RR (which work may not allow) and maybe Sea Otter so I will probably make an exception. I've been on the fence about doing crits, hammerfests, and other 'high risk' cycling because I really don't want to break a bone and not be able to cycle on this cruise.

On the other hand, if I actually want to win races this season my best move is to do those events and work on my racecraft. For me that stuff is definitely a tuned thing; the more I do it the crisper and more confident I am out there. I'm not sure if I'm being irrational about all this; getting on a bike period has its risks so its not like I'm totally eliminating the injury variable...
My recommendation would be to do the hammerfest rides, but pull out on days when the group is being overly sketchy. You can feel that pretty quick - a run red light light, not holding lines through corners, attacking just when cars start to overtake, etc. I pulled out of one once when a new guy on a TT bike showed up and couldn't corner. No ride leader that night, so he wasn't kicked out. I bailed mid ride, only to find the group crashed out in a corner a few miles from the end. Ambulances were on the way, so they asked me to go get a car for bikes.... they couldn't say that they didn't anticipate that happening...
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Old 03-29-19, 10:18 AM
  #13193  
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San Diego Velodrome track workout. 2x24 laps endurance efforts with partners. Nice day but windy.

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Old 03-29-19, 02:06 PM
  #13194  
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Did a Step Test last night, no improvement but I don't think I was 100% either. That killed me for the subsequent planned ride and I just called it early, and ended up 80 TSS short =\

Thanks @Hermes @chicagogal; unfortunately our rides don't really have a lead; the Saturday B does but that's a slower pace. The past few weeks our track record hasn't been great (3 crashes) which isn't normal. I'm going to take it all week by week but for the most part I'm going to be very selective about what I do which means I'll probably skip most. It was easy to skip the crit last night as it almost finishes in the dark. Normally people are pretty good riders but anyone can show...
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Old 03-29-19, 02:54 PM
  #13195  
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Rode harder than planned today, including a five-minute over-threshold interval to see how my IT band would react. It didn't react, it just worked.
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Old 03-29-19, 10:52 PM
  #13196  
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Rode twice today. Road ride with friends for coffee, then I couldn’t resist getting on the mtb for an hour. The hills are gorgeous right now.


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Old 03-29-19, 10:53 PM
  #13197  
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Originally Posted by revchuck View Post
Rode harder than planned today, including a five-minute over-threshold interval to see how my IT band would react. It didn't react, it just worked.
Nice.
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Old 03-30-19, 05:29 PM
  #13198  
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Enough BSing the drama for me, back to it.

1 hr city limits ride around Raleigh. 75ft per mile and over 20mph on my lonesome, with some poorly timed stops killing it down a hill. The worst, knowing it killed the momentum and you just flat spotted a tire trying to stop.

Probably could have had more speed without the construction stop and those crap timed lights.

It’s like a “how quick can I” loop I do sometimes.

400 TSS in less than 6 hours of ride time this week.
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Old 03-30-19, 11:56 PM
  #13199  
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That big ass ride last weekend, and just riding a lot in general is catching up to me I guess. Stopped getting faster and getting slower. Need the rest week. It's planned starting Tuesday.

Today was supposed to be 3 hours with 2x20, same as tomorrow. The 20 was to be closer to threshold, but that wasn't happening so I did them at maybe 92%. It's a guesstimate but prob pretty close. Man, I hardly ever allow myself to do long efforts that low and it's kinda nice to not have to mentally struggle for every revolution. I missed some sprints this week so added them today, and felt good. I mean, they are low power but hopefully they'll get back to 1400 soon enough.

I only got 2 hours in cuz I had to take my cat to the vet. I'll try for a bit extra tomorrow.

After, I did leg day at the gym. 5 sets of 10 squats at 185, hip thrusts, wall slides for quads, floor slides for hams, calf raises, obliques, abs, full stretch, huge dinner with a couple friends who were randomly in the neighborhood.
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Old 03-31-19, 01:15 PM
  #13200  
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Some incredible, incredible days of downhill skiing on Friday and Saturday. Bottomless powder all day. Thinking that will be it for the skiing this year though, work travel and first road race the next two weekends, at which point it'll be warm and skiing won't be much fun anymore.

Lifted last night and was surprised by my deadlift performance after tired skiing legs. Even did some unilateral stuff for @Hermes. Today was ~2 hours, with a long section plowing into a good headwind and then a 90* turn and I was doing everything I could to keep the bike upright in the crosswind. T'was a good week.
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