sdmc530

voluntary.....it will be abused but I think the 15 is just making a point that they were not fooling around with motorized units on a MUP with all sorts of people recreating.

Clipped_in

^^^^This!

HerrKaLeun

Pedal assisted electric gasoline-bike with throttle shouldn't be on MUP. Except for that we now have batteries and e-motor, this thing is exactly the same thing as the Class 2 e-bikes. Power may be more than 750W, but not much more. and the nominal 750w e-motor can easily produce over 1,000W. Would you be OK that being on the MUP?

aclinjury

The "15 MPH" limit is a TOTAL JOKE! Nobody riding ANY ebike will obey it. I've see college teens in flower dresses and no helmet flat out railing at 20 mph easily on their daily ebike commuters on the trails, with flower dresses blowing in the wind like a daisy parachute. Most normal cyclists riding at 20 MPH with this much drag will simply be toast after a few minutes, but not our dearly beloved college teeny students.

And I've seen a few young bucks on mtb ebikes decked out in full face helmets, googles, ballistic jeans, Fox racing jersey, hauling ass and pulling wheelies on their "ebikes" that are more resembling e-dirt bikes.

There is absolutely zero enforcement by the authority. They simply don't have the resources to be patrolling the trails, and the ebikers know this. So it can be a wild wild west situation here sometimes. I've see too many joggers and moms with their kids out on a nature walk only to get "wtf!!!" terrified sometimes.

The 750W motor limitation is also a complete joke.

You can install an 1800W motor from Amazon ($200) and you'd be haulling ass at over 35 mph.

Sound too complicated and want something a little simpler and cheaper? No problem, just buy a complete wheel from Walmat with a built in motor and drop it in your bike. You'd still be flying 28-30 mph.

UniChris

Someone can likely physically take their dirt bike or perhaps even car on the MUP too. The point is that it has been explained what is allowed, and if enforcement becomes necessary (in the eyes of the authorities) there are specifically relevant laws/ordinances to enforce.

MikeyMK

Mine has cruise control. It will endeavour to hold the set speed. I can hold it at a set 15mph on my own and the motor isn't assisting. If I'm pushing over 15mph the motor will use the speed to recharge the batteries, the friction increases downhill. However, if I get lazy and reduce pedalling effort then yes the motor has to work harder to keep at the set 15mph. But of course, the harder I make the motor work, the more battery it uses.

burnthesheep

15 is pretty universal for all users. It may be a misconception that only new e-bike rules apply.

I like seeing alt transit options helping. However, in the US the e-bike is still largely a toy. Commuter use is there, and increasing. I love seeing that. But, on a Saturday afternoon on an MUP that runs behind my house I often see e-bikes cruise by at about 20 and they aren't pedaling. The MUP is across the creek from my backyard.

I also see the scooter users and "single wheel electric skateboard" users also. Valid commute options, but people act like the rules don't apply.

It's always the same story, the few rotten apples ruining the bunch. I wouldn't want to slow up a real commuter relying on that bike and trail for getting to and from work. At the same time, I jog with my kids on that trail while they ride their bikes.

Dealing with roadie MUP heroes and e-bike lazy folks on a Saturday afternoon can be a bit frown inducing.

metalheart44

Our local MUP has a 15 MPH limit for everyone. There are plenty of cyclists who exceed that limit regularly, the most distressing are those weekend riders who seem to think they have priority to blast through choke points where there are pedestrians, dog walkers, moms pushing strollers, kids on bikes, etc.... That is its own issue, however, there is an increasing presence of Ebikes on the MUP and while some are clearly just casual poke along riders, there are also those who ride too fast for conditions and pose the same if not greater risks than the weekend racer wannabes. The issue is these Bikes have considerably more mass than a road or mountain bike.

Yesterday a friend and I were on the MUP for a casual ride and there was this ebike/scooter that we thought was probably a class three. We passed and my riding buddy commented to the rider that he could get a ticket for being on the MUP with a class three ebike and the fellow replied that his was class two. This thing must have weighed a 150 pounds and I shudder to think of what could happen in a collision with that thing on the MUP. The scooter looked something like the image above.

OBoile

Toronto MUPs typically have a 20 km/h speed limit. There are many signs indicating this.

I do agree, it is impossible to enforce.

livedarklions

With e-assist, it isn't just speed you should worry about, it's also weight--look what you can do with a 750w motor:

https://www.radpowerbikes.com/produc...ric-cargo-bike

Add the cargo, rider and bike, and that's well in excess of 500 pounds going more than 20 mph on a path.

MikeyMK

It is in England.

Speed limits on private land aren't legally enforceable unless the land owner sues, and the 15.5mph speed limit in public for e-bikes is for the motor.

And whilst I'm here, for all the uneducated in this thread regarding those of us elsewhere in the world, there is a maximum legal power which isn't strong enough to propel under motor alone. And the throttle doesn't work if the pedals aren't turning. And if you're caught by the bobby one one which isn't legal, they can seize it on the spot.

As for those of you guys in America, you still have laws on e-bikes and those laws are first to your personal opinions. An e-bike meeting the regulations is not a motorcycle whether you like it or not.

If someone is using something illegally then that is another matter, and one for your law enforcement.

livedarklions

Thanks for Britsplaining the proper terms of discussion of American ebikes.

American law actually seems to be behind the technology here, and it's perfectly reasonable to discuss what we think the law,should be. The motorcycle/pedal assist distinction is the legal one right now, but as the motor technology gets better, and it gets easier to modify the electronic speed governors on these motors, we're going to be in a situation where that distinction might make less and less sense.

So no, it isn't just a matter for law enforcement, it's a matter of deciding what the laws that they have to enforce should be.

MikeyMK

If you have a legal e-bike and you modify it to illegal specification, and then use it in that specification on the road, then you are breaking the law and that is a matter for law enforcement.

It's been the problem for a very long time with varying subject matter, least not here with 16 year olds taking the restrictor plate out of their 2-strike motorcycle carburettor to make it go faster.

I don't know what part of legal/illegal specifications you're struggling with.

MikeyMK

I know someone who rides one like that, but his has no pedals. His semi-slick tyres are 215 wide, which is wider than the tyres on my BMW MINI Cooper! I've told him it's illegal, but as it's only slow it seems nobody cares - he says he gets more admiration than anything else but it's only a matter of time before someone blows the whistle on him. Probably by one of the cyclists who overtake him...

metalheart44

The one we saw did not exactly like the image, but it did not have pedals. Since it is a class 2 it is legal on the MUP, but as others have noted, the mass of that type of vehicle is something that could be a serious issue in a collision. Ebikes are more prevalent on local MUPS and it seems there is going to be an evolution of thought about where and when such larger vehicles are appropriate.

2old

CA bike paths have a speed limit of 20 mph for e-bikes, with 28 for bike lanes contiguous with a road (like all states which have the "Class Rules" AFAIK). I use my MTB on the few relatively crowded areas, but most places I ride are desolate and speed isn't regulated.

MikeyMK

Ah, they're not legal here. But neither are any electric scooters, including segeways. No self-propelled vehicle is legal here unless it's road registered. This is going to be revised in the near future though, and people do break the law by using e-scooters of varying designs.

UniChris

Without pedals it probably does not qualify as any sort of "e-bike" so would not be allowed even in places where throttle classes might be.

livedarklions

I'm seeing people ride very heavily laden cargo bikes at high speed on a crowded MUP where someone got killed in a collision between 2 non-ebikes a couple weeks ago. I'm talking about lots of paths built to specs that I don't think are appropriate for ebike usage. I'm talking about conditions as I find them in New England, USA based on my experience using those paths and observing traffic flow and near misses.

I'm also not arrogant enough to think I should tell you what to be concerned about when you consider laws governing path use in the UK. The notion that American law enforcement is really going to be able effectively to check in real time whether the motor is operating on the bike path at 250 vs. 750 watts or will stop assisting at 20 mph is quite laughable, and any regulatory regime based upon them doing so is doomed to failure.

jefnvk

I don't understand why people have to hijack every ebike discussion to inject their personal knowledge that any ebike is a motorcycle and anyone who doesn't think like them is an idiot. Also, as the owner of a motorcycle, I missed where I have to pedal it to make it go, meaning that maybe there is a difference.

Exactly my thoughts. Every MUP by me is limited to a max of 15MPH, some 10MPH. No, no one is sitting at the end of a stretch writing out tickets for a bike doing 20MPH, but there is at least something to fall back on if speed does become an issue.

To be quite honest, every once in a while someone rides up one on a moped, and while I don't like it, it isn't particularly bothersome.

I mean, sure, go pick an extreme example. I could likewise point out there is one person I regularly see on my local bike path who easily clears 300#, should they not be allowed on with a pedal bike because thy may cause more damage in an accident? Even my svelte 215# with my 35# fatty at a combined 250# will cause quite the bigger impact at 20MPH than the 120# granny on a class I.

livedarklions

I ride a lot in the Boston area, and I don't think this is a question of it being an extreme example--this could easily turn into a bunch of commercial delivery vehicles in a big city using the paths because it is quicker and cheaper than sending out a car or a truck with the items.

These cargo bikes are advertised as being able to carry 300 pounds cargo, plus rider weight, plus the bikes weigh in excess of 60 pounds, so it's somewhere north of 500 pounds of gvw capacity. Do the math if you like, but getting hit with something that heavy going 20 mph is going to have a bigger impact than any of your other examples. I've ridden when I weighed 300 pounds, and I've ridden with other people who weighed that much. None of us were getting anywhere near 20 mph at that weight, and the additional 165 pounds or so on the cargo bike is really significant in case of collision, especially at speed.

The place where I saw these bikes in operation is almost exactly where a rider was killed in a head-on collision with another bicyclist about 2 weeks ago. It's a MUP going through some heavily trafficked business districts, exactly where you would employ cargo bikes to circumvent street traffic. I'm sure somewhere in the world, there are a few 300 pound riders capable of going 20 mph, but they're not mass-producing any of those anytime soon.

Not sure what your point was with the 120# granny, seems to support my case that weight has to be a factor in safety-classing electronic vehicles for path usage.

MikeyMK

Cargo bikes are nothing new, and neither are MUP's - i was towing a trailer full of newspapers on pedestrian/cycleway footpaths here in Milton Keynes in the 1980s. My brakes, incidentally, were terrible.

I hear you on the ability to police modified e-bikes, but it's really no different to policing anything. Laws are broken all the time, and the resources put into it are balanced with the need to police adequately. It's fair enough you quoting a fatality, but in a country with 300 million people it means little when over 30,000 people die on American roads every year...

KraneXL

Meaningless unless there's some authority around to enforce it. Even if its just from time to time.

enveous

You really need to fix your post that I replied to then. "Secondly, e-bikes are not limited to any speed, anywhere"

The trails in the US, where speeds are limited, are part of anywhere. Obviously.

GlennR

What do you suggest? Requiring bicycles to have registration plates and install speed cameras?