RobbieTunes

The next year, the all-Italian Equipe was discounted halfway through the season to $799 or so. The Turbo had better components, maybe by a hair. Both good frames.

seypat

Those dark components are awesome! The brakes in particular. Even the dork disc is sweet. I'd leave that on. Details, baby. That's what the headset looks like.
Here's what mine looked like as found. Also a pic of the frame in the sun. I'm waiting on some cable to arrive for the build up.

seypat

The seatpost on mine is is a 27.0. I just noticed the DT font. I'm not really noticing anything besides the dark components. I can't take my eyes off of them.

seypat

Now that I have looked at the rest of the bike, I found something to sleuth. Look at the picture of the rear DO/RD/etc. Look at the way the chainstay is cut at a 45ish angle where it meets the DO. Mine is cut at a 90. Now go look at @verktyg's beautiful Echelon in the Appraisals forum. Same 45ish angle. Could be a coincidence. Might be a connection. The pic is of my dropout.

https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...bim-konno.html

T-Mar

The Comp TA and Turbo were sourced from both Tano and M-a-t-s-u-s-h-i-t-a. The latter is best known for their Panasonic brand and they also employed the acute angle cut on the chain stays of some of their better models (see pic). Given that they are a known source for some Turbo, this would be seem to be the more likely source. However, the serial number would tell us if it is a M-a-t-s-u-s-h-i-t-a frame, without a doubt.

T-Mar

No doubt, you were paying extra for the Italian names associated with the Centurion Cinelli Equipe. though the question of the better component selection is arguable. Certainly, the Superbe Pro derailleurs of the Turbo out-performed the Campagnolo Nuovo Record set-up on the Cinelli Equipe but the other components on the Turbo weren't up to level the derailleurs, which were door bait. If I was parting out the components on both bicycles, I strongly suspect that I would get more for the Equipe's components.

seypat

Sleuthing done. I knew you would have the answer.

verktyg 

T-Mar, you're right. Never saw any catalog listings for these but they were apparently made special for the Centurion Turbo.

Why they didn't just go with black anodized components? Only the Japanese could answer those aesthetics questions. (Think "Fair Lady Blue Bird" the model name for the Datsun Z mini muscle cars in Japan)

The Gran Compe NGC400 brakes were also sold as Suntour Cyclone branded. NGC stood for New Grand Compe and 400 indicated Short Reach - 40mm to 50mm. I have several sets of these calipers that are unbranded. They're very well made.

Standard Tange # 1 had .8mm x .5mm x .8mm top and down tubes with a .9mm x .6mm x .9mm seat tube. The 3 main tubes in Tange # 2 were all .9mm x .6mm x .9mm wall thickness.

The double butted seat tubes used in both # 1 & # 2 required smaller diameter seatposts that those used with single butted .8mm x .5mm or .9mm x .6mm seat tubes.


I had to cut the seatpost out of my 1987 IM when I got it. The bike had been used for triathlons, ridden hard and put away wet so the seat tube was severely corroded.




STUPID DESIGN... using a deeply fluted seatpost on a triathlon bike!

When I started reaming out the seat tube to clean up the corrosion I had to remove a lot of clean metal to get to what I thought was the correct size 27.2mm seatpost to fit. I didn't realize at the time that the seat tube was double butted and had a wall thickness of .9mm at the top.

BTW, I also had a nice almost NOS 1986 IM frame that I sold off. The seat tube cleaned up nicely with a little bit of honing and a 27.2mm seatpost fit in smoothly. The exception to the rule...



The IM bikes were definitely not in the same league as the Turbos but they offered a whole lotta bang for the buck.

verktyg

AZORCH

I've owned two 1984 Turbos, the first one was the first serious road bike I purchased, and was one of the only bikes I bought new. The second came to me in a bike-for-bike trade where I definitely felt like I came out the winner. That was maybe seven or eight years ago and I discovered time had not been kind to me: my memories of the first bike, very fast and light, translated to something a bit more squirrely on the second bike... wasn't the bike, though. It was me! (Turns out I wasn't 145 pounds any longer.)

RobbieTunes

I hate it when that happens!

leftthread

Mine took a 27.0 post.

oldbikenewbike

Wow, that's a lot of work! Nice save!! I've been fortunate in my purchasing to only have run across one like that...but I sold it off.

T-Mar

That would be consistent with what other members have reported and also be consistent with a Tange #4 seat tube. It makes more sense to use a stock, existing seat tube than manufacture a custom seat tube. However, it is curious as to why WSI would do this, as the Tange #4 seat tube was slightly heavier than the double butted Tange #2 seat tube spec'd with Tange #1 . Normally, a heavier tube would be employed to stiffen the frame and the standard approach would be a heavier gauge down tube.

2cam16

Nice find! I agree with the rest about the dork disc. That would be the only dork disc I'd rock. lol

verktyg 

I've avoided buying rust buckets or bikes requiring a lot of work but I only paid $50 or $60 for the bike less wheels and saddle. Bought it to use for a wet weather beater.

I don't ride in the rain anymore if I can help it but during the NorCal rainy season bikes pick up a lot of crud, leaves, etc. from wet pavements. I don't like to get my nice bikes dirty

I like the over the top Miami Vice pink and yellow and ride it occasionally just to irritate stogy C&Vers!

@T-Mar I agree, the way to stiffen up the bottom end of a frame has traditionally been to use a heavier wall thickness down tube.

Could never figure out why the Japanese made double butted seat tubes but your suggestion about not having to make single butted seat tubes makes sense from a "Japanese" economic point of view.

One thing to bear in mind, there were never a large number of derailleur bikes sold in the Japanese home market.

Most of the bikes produced in Japan were 50 Lb. single speed urban transportation clunkers. Bikes were considered household items and purchased by the notoriously frugal Japanese housewives (for their husbands to pedal while they sat side saddle on the rear rack)!

Luxury model Japanese "de Ville" bike with lot'sa chrome.




With the exception of maybe Fuji, most of the Japanese bikes imported into the US before the mid 70's were built to the specs of importers, many of whom had little experience with performance light weight bikes.

Those importers went to Japanese bike makers and requested bikes that looked "just like this". There was a fast buck to be made during the US bike boom! A lot of those bikes weighed a ton, rode like tanks and handled like wheelbarrows.

As a whole Japanese people are smaller in stature than most "Westerners". Very few bikes produced for their home market have frames larger than 21" (54cm). Who there could ride a 58cm+ bike and know how it handled??

The cosmetics on Japanese bikes from the boom era on were generally better than comparably priced European models plus the easy shifting Suntour derailleurs compared to the "fussy" French derailleurs made them easier to sell.

By the mid 70's the cosmetics and looks of the Japanese made bikes improved even more. For example, Centurions started coming with long point lugs and fluted seat stay like those found on top European "racing" bikes.

But... the ride and handling in general didn't improve until importers like WSI sought out advice from experienced riders concerning frame tubing, geometry and handling.

One thing that I've never understood is why Ishiwata and Tange used heavy wall thicknesses on their fork blades for light gauge tube sets???

About 1977 I bought a set of Ishiwata 015 tubes to build a TT bike for a petite woman. At that time the thin sections of the 015 main tubes were .3mm thick. You could squeeze them between you thumb and finger (at least I could). The fork blades were 1.0mm thick, the same as used on all of their other 4130 tube sets from 017 to 022.

Japanese housewife syndrome???

Columbus SL blades were .9mm and some Reynolds fork blades were 1.0mm/.8mm and even as thin as 1.0mm/.5mm thick.

So, perhaps the same genius that specified the deeply fluted Sugino SP-KC seatposts for the IM Triathlon bike, specified the heavier walled seat tubes?



verktyg

oldbikenewbike

It's driving me crazy that the frame is way to small for my 6', long legged frame. It's all cleaned up, polished and waxed, and all I can do is look at it. Aughhhh!

So, at this point, I might have to put it up for a Local Sale. I wouldn't want to ship it and take any chances on it getting damaged as I've had happen in the past. So, if anyone is interested and feels like making a drive to Long Island, please let me know.

Classtime 

Too bad. I'd like an 84 Turbo one inch smaller than my 24" but I'm in Los Angeles. If yours is a 23, maybe you'd like to just swap frames?

oldbikenewbike

Frame I have is a 22'', but at this point I'll sell the bike as a whole. Thanks anyway!

RaleighSport

Sweet score.. now I'm wondering about putting the silver accents and decals on mine with how good yours looks.