joebiker1

Hello everyone, I am currently using my iphone on a mount and ridewithgps to plan and then show my route w/ turn-by-turn, and track my speed, time, and mileage. I'd like to step up to using a power meter and bike computer. The main feature I really want is a reminder/timer for structured training (e.g., intervals). In order to use this, I would need to load or create/load structured workouts. I'd like this latter part to be free if possible. From what I can tell, Garmin allows you to create or find/load workouts from their Garmin Connect site. It also looks like you can create your own workout. Do I have this right, and is it free?

It appears that with the Wahoo Elemnt you cannot create your own workouts using the device/app and have to load something from a Third Party. From what I can tell, those all cost $. Is there a way to create or load workouts for free on the Elemnt? Does Training Peaks Basic allow for this, and will it work well with the Wahoo? Other options?

Finally, can I get the same functionality via an app and forego the computer? If so, which app will do this?

Thanks!

sfrider 

There are no pre-defined bike workouts that I can see. But it's pretty easy to create basic interval workouts:


If you have a Garmin device you should be able to upload directly from the Garmin Connect app. And, yes, Garmin Connect is free.

I haven't tried it on the computer though.

I doubt you can upload them to a Wahoo though. Doesn't the Wahoo Fitness app have something?

adamrice 

Trainer Day (formerly ErgDB) lets you design structured workouts and send them to a few other services. It looks like the route for getting them onto a Wahoo would be via Training Peaks.

joebiker1

Thanks guys, looks like with the wahoo I’d be stuck paying for training peaks but with the Garmin I could build and upload workouts for free using Garmin connect.

sierrabob

I have been using RGT Cycling for direct drive indoor trainers during the pandemic. If you search RGT Cycling Training, you can access several training plans consisting of structured workouts by Spokes Coaching (click the HERE link). They’re very comprehensive with a wide variety of endurance, VO2 max, anaerobic, and threshold exercises. These populate into a Training Peaks calendar. Since you asked, yes, the Basic TP app supports these workouts. I know for certain that they export into Garmin for outdoor use as well as the RGT Cycling app for indoor training. My Edge 1000 shows all the workouts in the calendar. After the initial setup, everything is automatic. Data flows back into the calendar after you workout. Amazingly all this is free at the moment. Kudos to RGT and Training Peaks for making this possible.

joebiker1

Wow that is good to know. I would like to think that means training peaks basic also exports to and imports from wahoo as well. Would be great if someone could confirm, but I am leaning more towards the Garmin at this point.

bikebikebike

Similar question with Hammerhead Karoo:
1) Will it import from other than TrainerRoad? Basic or Premium?
2) What programs available without charge can create Structured Workouts, in what file formats, for which devices?
Trainer road is $120 to $240 a year which makes it unattractive at my level of need.
3) What alternatives are being tried -> like a programmable timer and sheet of paper or card with level of activity?
Every discussion I have found so far seems to assume you are an advanced TR user with a drawer full of sensors,
and has no sense of how to explain this to a beginner or basic fitness oriented non racer.

sierrabob

I’m not sure about Trainer Road, but Training Peaks Basic appears to sync with both Wahoo Element (through the Wahoo Companion App) and Karoo Hammerhead. I don’t have either device, so I can’t confirm. But Training Peaks has 4 free structured workouts. One is a nine day plan with intermediate level workouts. When properly setup, these plans should flow right into the calendar on your particular device, be it Garmin, Wahoo, or Karoo. At least with TP, this should all be free. To maximize benefit, you do need a drawerful of sensors, though. But in the end it’s just you against the clock. You could easily make up your own structure with nothing more than a timepiece.

Barry2 

I just loaded a custom workout on my Bolt.
I wanted a Ramp test without subscribing to a service. Works great.
Best of all... I wrote a how-to. 8-)

Here you go..

Barry

sierrabob

Whew, I read through that. Quite a few steps, but congrats on getting it all figured out and thanks for posting. I approach FTP testing with the goal of achieving a desired improved FTP rather than "let's see what I've got if I go all out." So I use ERG mode. I just set 105% of my hoped for new FTP as a power target for 20 minutes @ 90 RPM in a Training Peaks workout. After adding to my calendar this workout is available on both Garmin and RGT Cycling. I think it would also show up in the Wahoo App and Elemnt Bolt, too. Free subscription to Training Peaks works for me.

Barry2 

Bob,
I've had fun with that thread, but it is TLDR at this point.

Although I have history 40 years ago cycling in my teens, I'm now a noob and don't have the skills required to pace for 20mins.

Any thoughts regarding Training Peaks vs Trainer Day ???

Thanks

Barry

adamrice 

• Training Peaks is for keeping track of your rides, building training plans, and evaluating your progress toward a goal. It also has a marketplace for buying training plans, and it acts as a way to share your workout logs with coaches (if you work with a coach).
• Trainer Day is for designing/sharing/finding interval workouts. That's about it. It has a few training plans, but that's not currently a big part of the website.
• There's also Trainer Road (I get confused too), which has some of the training-plan features of Training Peaks, but its central feature is connecting to a smart trainer for riding intervals. Sort of like Zwift. It also has an active users forum.

sierrabob

Thanks, Adam, for that comparison review. I've played around with Trainer Road, Training Peaks, and Trainer Day. Trainer Road has a vast number of well-designed structured workouts. However, they're not for export to Training Peaks. You have to train with the Trainer Road subscription app. Trainer Day has quite a few workouts, too. I was able to export one to Training Peaks and then onto my workout app, RGT Cycling. Can't check Garmin now due to server outage. So, if cost is a factor, there's quite a bit one can do with the free versions of these apps.

zen_

https://cloud.tacx.com

You can make basic structured workouts for free on the website, and then ride them using the Tacx mobile or desktop app. It's not rocket science to make basic FTP based steady state or interval workouts yourself if you've done them before. My only issue is that if you stop to pause a workout while in ERG mode, to get back to the target power level you sometimes have to spin like crazy because the resistance is so low, and it won't help you get to the target power with more resistance.

adamrice 

And I just learned today that Trainer Day now has an app that will control a smart trainer for running structured workouts. Looks like a cheaper option than most of the other guys.

bikebikebike

Thanks
I want to train for fitness, and am prolly 45years older than the guys these things are focused on.
Can go all day at 60rpm/120watts, but get exhausted on what some of the racer's workouts use as a warmup.
NP, but trying not to spend too much barking up the wrong trails.
This is literally more cardiac rehab than race training, and the programs are skewed heavily towards the latter,
to the point of having menus without a even a Fitness option, just choice of what race you are training for.
FTP at 1 hour? Um, nope. Asks more than I can do.
Question is whether the low FTPs gives usable goals and protocols when fed into the training algorithms.
Like Barry intimates, getting a meaningful FTP measure may be tough to get and apply in that setting.
I'ld like to use my Hammerhead to set this up, an will try the suggestions to get this working as a tool
to set up reasonable workout and measurement.
Again thanks

sierrabob

If your FTP is 120 watts, then the RGT app I use will structure your workouts around that number. All you have to do is maintain a target cadence. It’s much less intimidating than group rides with the younger crowds putting out massive wattage.

Barry2 

bikex3,
The FTP we refer to IS the fitness level setting in these softwares you are looking for.
it is a measure of the maximum Wattage output you can achieve for one hour.

in order to improve your FTP value most people rely on some form of Interval training.
These Intervals are periods of time below your FTP with short periods above FTP in between.
The trick is to make these make the higher periods tough enough to tax your body and force it to adapt, getting stronger..... But without taxing the body so far that you hurt it. Going too hard will cause muscle pain and adversely effect subsequent rides.

That is why evaluating the magic FTP number is required.
Too low, not enough work, ineffective training
Too high, too much work, unable to complete sessions, ineffective training.

Apparently my limiting factor is leg strength. I’ve spent the last two months with my leg muscles mildly uncomfortable.
But not so bad I was unable to perform the next ride. Better yet, I can measure them getting stronger.
At 56 and having spent too many decades away from exercise, I’m moving in the right direction.

I hope I’ve not stated the obvious and this info proves helpful

Barry

BTW apparently your Hammerhead won’t import files. But I think you knew that.

bikebikebike

Thanks Barry: It's a system for sure. Your experience mirrors mine.
Watching performance ceilings decrease with age, with the personal exertion experience metrics changing,
I wanted to quantitate my performance for comparison to age norms and see if it might be a tool in training.


There is a lot of support for intervals helping, and it's been a challenge translating them to my capacity.
The FTP seems weighted as a proxy for mVO2, with stage advancement shorter ramp protocols useful,
as hour long tests seem useful in more advanced training where that level of exertion is just part of the game.
The engineer in me appreciates the science in it, but also the practical.
This stuff is useful in geriatric fitness, it just takes tweaking. It's a growing need.

Hammerhead got this rolling for me, when they started importing Workouts from TR, but they continue to be, um, a work in progress.

adamrice 

Sort of.

- VO2max is something we can only measure in a lab, but FTP is something we can measure with a smart trainer or power meter.
- Threshold power is measuring something different: it's the power you produce at the point where lactate reaches a certain concentration in your muscles (4 mmol/liter), that is, your lactate threshold. It's called "functional" threshold power (as I understand it) because we're not doing blood tests directly, we're relying on a functional observation (aside: there are devices now that purport to measure your muscle oxygenation non-invasively now, so we might be able to have direct threshold power measurements on the road).
- Based on measurements of a lot of people, we know that for most folks, power follows a predictable curve, within a certain range. So if you can produce X watts for 20 minutes, you can produce about Y watts for 1 minute. Your power at VO2max is different from your FTP, but you can estimate your VO2max based on your power. A real blood-based threshold test and a real mask-and-tube VO2max test are measuring related-but-different things.

sierrabob

That's great information, Adam. Thanks for posting. Before purchasing both a power meter and a smart trainer, the only thing that I looked at was heart rate. Now these other terms are starting to make sense: FTP, lactate threshold, VO2 max. Question: should 95% of a 20-minute FTP test equal a 1-hour lactate threshold test (power meter only, no blood work or mask)? A friend of mine uses Peloton and has been posting his massive wattage numbers on Strava. I'm trying to better understand his efforts.

adamrice 

That is the rule of thumb that most people go by, although I've read that it's only really applicable for very well-trained athletes. If you're not quite so well-trained, the "hour discount" is more like 10% or 15%. But AFAICT, most people who do FTP tests are doing 20-minute tests, and no one applies anything but a 5% discount to that result. There are other testing protocols for 8-minute and even 3-minute tests.