FromBeyond

I'm still fairly beginner at cycling. My Specialized Allez still has straps on the pedals, which has worked OK until now.
I'm getting inner knee pain on my right leg. Google says this is often due to feet being too far apart on the pedals, putting additional stress on the inner knee. However, I believe my shoes are the problem. My big wide running shoes don't fit very well in the straps so I'm wearing some narrow approach shoes which have no arch and I know give me knee problems.

My question is - I have low arches and overpronate which means a lot of shoes and boots give me knee pain, as described. Do cycling shoes have arch or otherwise provide any supination? I'm afraid I'm going to buy a set only to find out they hurt my knees.

MAK

I highly suggest that you read "Andy Pruitt's Complete Medical Guide for Cyclists". It's under $20, understandable and extremely informative. He runs a therapy and fitting practice in Boulder, CO. Supposedly professional cyclists from around the world come to him regularly. Also look at the Specialized site regarding their shoes where they explain BG (body geometry) technology. Dr. Pruitt is a Specialized consultant. I had knee problems and Specialized shoes cured me on my first ride with them. The inserts, which can be purchased separately, aligned my knee and I won't cycle in anything else.

Pirkaus

FromBeyond

Awesome info.
Thank you Mak and Pirkaus!

FromBeyond

I also came down with some pain in my lower hamstring trying to race up some Strava segments, and after reading through that bikedynamics page, I wonder if my saddle may be too high.
Edit: My leg angle extended was ~147 degrees, lowered the seat about 1" to ~140, it feels like my butt is dragging the ground when riding now but I'll try it out for awhile and see how my hamstrings do.
Thanks again for the link.

DannoXYZ 

Too-high typically results in pain behind knee. Seat too far back can also be problem.

Also don't "hammer" down your pedal-strokes. Especially not at bottom of pedal-stroke. Trying to stretch crankarms will only lead to extra stress on your joints.Notice the force on your feet. At bottom of pedal-stroke, your feet should actually be pulling straight back. Lemond says it's like trying to scrap mud off bottom of your shoe. On up-stroke, imagine trying to "knee" your handlebars.

Try spinning lower-gears in circular motions.

69chevy

There is a lot going on geometry wise with a persons saddle position.

A quick and free way to see if you're in the right ballpark is to go here https://www.competitivecyclist.com/S...INT_ID=IB12809

Even if you only use the measurements for your saddle position, it's an easy way to make sure you're in the ballpark.

Another simple check is to get on the saddle, with your sitbones planted and ensure you can reach the pedal with your heel with the crank down.

A lot of people set their saddle based on whatever reach they have on whatever bike they have, but a fit always starts with the saddle position and goes from there, for the exact reasons youre mentioning.

berner

A full inch of change in saddle heigth is extreme. I would not go more than 1/3 of that in one go.

redlude97

scraping and pulling up is outdated and less efficient. The goal should simply be to unweight the opposite foot to get it out the way

Carbonfiberboy 

Beg to differ. Pedaling is very complicated and "perfect pedaling" is a required skill for LD work. I could go on for paragraphs, but I'll spare the gentle reader.

Be that as it may, pedaling practice and saddle height probably have nothing to do with OP's knee pain, which we don't know enough about it offer an opinion. The exact location of the OP's inner knee pain makes a big difference to the PT required to make the pain go away.

So exactly where is it , OP?

BTW, Specialized sells a wide variety of insoles for their shoes, to hopefully suit any foot problems. You should go clipless with proper cycling shoes. Distance between pedals (Q factor) probably also has nothing to do with it.

welshTerrier2

Many things can cause knee pain such as bike fit, riding style, terrain, over training, lack of flexibility and, as you mentioned, footwear.
As much of the discussion thus far has focused on footwear, I'll comment on the other factors.

Have you considered a professional fitting at a qualified bike shop? When you ride, perhaps it would be helpful to ensure a fairly high cadence instead of pushing hard on the pedals. A cadence of at least 70 or more might take some strain off your knee. If you're having regular pain, it might be helpful to go a week or two without any substantial hills. Stick to the flat stuff to see if the pain eases. How often and how far have you been riding? It's great to be motivated as a beginner but make sure you build up gradually. Try not to increase your mileage by more than 10% per week. Do you stretch AFTER you ride? Tight, inflexible muscles can aggravate joint pain. Consider getting a foam roller and learn how to use it. Don't ever stretch cold muscles. That can lead to injury.

And, of course, you might consider seeing a podiatrist or getting some orthotics if you think your footwear is the prime suspect.

redlude97

We can agree to disagree, but smooth/perfect pedaling doesn't need to involve scraping or pulling up. that is what the science says, and what the pros do
https://pdfs.semanticscholar.org/4d2...5102dddf96.pdf
https://www.researchgate.net/publica...nique-Cyclists

Carbonfiberboy 

Always good to talk with you.

IMO the first link can be ignored because of the lack of training of the varied pedaling techniques being studied. It can take thousands of miles to modify one's stroke in an attempt to increase efficiency or endurance.

The second study is quite good, but I don't think it says quite what you say it says. A distinctive feature of the pro stroke is less negative torque on the upstroke and if I'm reading it correctly, more pulling at the bottom.

An interesting study which you may not have read is here: https://www.radlabor.de/fileadmin/PDF...MSS_-_2011.pdf
This study shows that with appropriate biofeedback it's possible to increase pedaling efficiency by pedaling circles.

Due to the small size of the hip flexors, it's not possible to pull up on the backstroke at high effort for long periods. However as your 2nd link shows, partially unweighting the rear pedal does produce positive results with a very great deal of practice. Pulling up hard however is a good ability to have in your toolbox. Comes in really handy. Since I can't pedal pro volume, I work my hip flexors with bent leg lifts in the Roman chair to exhaustion. Not perfect, but it helps.

We know that new riders bounce in the saddle at high cadence because they don't decelerate their downforce leg near the bottom of the stroke. Actually it's even simpler than that. All that's required for smooth pedaling is to always apply pedal force tangentially to the pedaling circle. This automatically decelerates the downforce leg and allows a smooth transfer of muscular force to the pedal. Thus the force from each leg muscle varies in a cyclical pattern with each pedal revolution, always the sum of forces being at 90° to the crank, whether creating positive or negative torque. A few years of working on neuromuscular control on the rollers and bingo.

A little side-note: one hears Tour commenters saying stuff like, "He's getting tired, look at him bob now." Meaning some of those smaller muscles have packed it in and now only the quads are firing. A distinctive feature of the best LD racers is a complete lack of upper body movement. The reactive forces are contained in the pedaling circle. The idea is to spread the pedaling force out among as many leg muscles as is possible, thus decreasing the amount of work required of each individual muscle. "From each according to their ability, to each according to their needs."

redlude97

Yep, same with you. The same could be said about the specific training in the study you posted as well, its in the conclusions even as the hypothesized reason the pulling up method didn't result in any change in efficiency.
Less negative torque means less pulling up. The pros pull up less than the elites and club riders. That is why I said the goal is to unweight the pedal, not pull up. Being able to pull up is a good skill to have yes, but should not be a part of your normal cycling pedal motion. Its used to generate some additional power at a much lower efficiency, we all do it seated or standing to put out extra power for bursts, but that wasn't the contention in the first place. Notice I never said to just stomp down. While I agree the idea is to spread out the load, there is no indication what that proper distribution is necessarily, and the that pulling up results in a better distribution, the opposite actually.

FromBeyond

I don't think saddle height has anything to do with the knee pain, that was a sidebar comment about hamstring pain.

I didn't know there was that much theory about pedaling. I'd like to think I don't bounce and my upper body is pretty quiet and my cadence is decent as I strive to "spin to win" as they say. But, i don't have a cadence meter so I'm just guessing. I need to go for a ride with the local bike club and let the local bike nerds pick me apart so I can fix any technique issues.

My LBS tried to sell me on some Shimano shoes but I can't purchase until next paycheck. The lady told me they have a 60 day return policy. They seemed nice and they actually fit great but only some saddle time would tell for sure. They don't carry Specialized shoes, but she said I could use normal inserts in the Shimano's. I use Superfeet inserts in most of my footwear, I wonder if they would fit. I guess I should just bring them in next time.