Electronic Shifting - What's the Point?
10-26-20, 07:25 AM
#176
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Are you a 12 year old? it seems you have read my post but are still trying to understand what I said. I may not be a native english speaker, but I think the meaning is quite clear.
You knowing what button does what has nothing to do with having an idea of how the system works at the electronic/software level. You simply don't know that and won't be able to unless you are a SRAM or Shimano engineer.
It's true that, theoretically, you don't need to know it to use the system. Until your system fails and is out of warranty and SRAM considers it obsolete. Meanwhile, there are lots of 30 year old derailleurs that still work.
You knowing what button does what has nothing to do with having an idea of how the system works at the electronic/software level. You simply don't know that and won't be able to unless you are a SRAM or Shimano engineer.
It's true that, theoretically, you don't need to know it to use the system. Until your system fails and is out of warranty and SRAM considers it obsolete. Meanwhile, there are lots of 30 year old derailleurs that still work.
10-26-20, 08:22 AM
#177
Senior Member
Unfortunately I can't do anything about my car if it breaks down. Cars can't usually be repaired at the roadside anyway unless it's something minor.
Fortunately, bikes are easily repairable and unless something really unusual happens (something cracked in a catastrophic way, tire damage beyond repair...) you can't mostly fix anything, anywhere with little equipment. Sometimes a real repair can't be done, but mostly you can do something that allows you to get to your destination or somewhere where you can properly fix the bike.
By the way, you won't see me spending lots of money on smart-whatevers that depend on remote servers to work. I don't like what happens when the company goes bankrupt, shuts down the servers and you smart-whatever suddenly becomes a very expensive paperweight. I've seen that happen too many times. There's enough trash in the world.
10-26-20, 11:33 AM
#178
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Advantage of SRAM batteries is that if the RD one dies, you can swap it for the FD battery. Battery level and gear position are also visible on Garmin.
10-26-20, 11:34 AM
#179
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Disability issues
Earlier this year BC (Before COVID) I purchased a bike with SRAM Force eTap AXS.
So far I haven't been very impressed with electronic shifting or at least with SRAM's electronic shifting. I haven't tried EPS or Di2 so I can't really compare apples to apples. However I do have a couple of other bikes with Shimano Ultegra, 105, Campy Record 12 and Chorus 12--all mechanical. I don't think the SRAM eTap shifts any more consistently or reliably than any other groupset I have. As a matter of fact I sometimes think the mechanical groupsets might shift better. The one thing I do think is pretty cool, but not all necessary, is the wireless connectivity.
Am I missing something? What are others' thoughts on electronic shifting?
So far I haven't been very impressed with electronic shifting or at least with SRAM's electronic shifting. I haven't tried EPS or Di2 so I can't really compare apples to apples. However I do have a couple of other bikes with Shimano Ultegra, 105, Campy Record 12 and Chorus 12--all mechanical. I don't think the SRAM eTap shifts any more consistently or reliably than any other groupset I have. As a matter of fact I sometimes think the mechanical groupsets might shift better. The one thing I do think is pretty cool, but not all necessary, is the wireless connectivity.
Am I missing something? What are others' thoughts on electronic shifting?
Bone on bone is no joke.
10-26-20, 11:49 AM
#180
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At 69, energy over the long-haul is a concern. When you're hot, tired to the point of exhaustion, caked in dried sweat, and slightly dehydrated, a missed shift can be disastrous! On events such as the Copper Triangle, where the last 24-miles has an 18-mile unrelenting uphill, a missed shift can mean coming to a stop. If this happens, it is a real struggle to get going again on an 18% grade! Electronic shifting ensures there are no missed shifts. Electronic shifting also makes shifting under power much more even and less stress on the drive-train. For me, electronic shifting means the difference between a successful and fun event and one where it is one headache after another. In the six-years since going to electronic shifting, I can honestly say it is the most critical upgrade for me on longer rides of 100+ miles or 8,000+ vertical feet of climbing.
10-26-20, 12:48 PM
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I know (most of) the logic of a PC and Android smartphones / tablets. I don't know how the rest work. Except for my car, it's not like they can get me stranded in the middle of nowhere.
Unfortunately I can't do anything about my car if it breaks down. Cars can't usually be repaired at the roadside anyway unless it's something minor.
Fortunately, bikes are easily repairable and unless something really unusual happens (something cracked in a catastrophic way, tire damage beyond repair...) you can't mostly fix anything, anywhere with little equipment. Sometimes a real repair can't be done, but mostly you can do something that allows you to get to your destination or somewhere where you can properly fix the bike.
By the way, you won't see me spending lots of money on smart-whatevers that depend on remote servers to work. I don't like what happens when the company goes bankrupt, shuts down the servers and you smart-whatever suddenly becomes a very expensive paperweight. I've seen that happen too many times. There's enough trash in the world.
Unfortunately I can't do anything about my car if it breaks down. Cars can't usually be repaired at the roadside anyway unless it's something minor.
Fortunately, bikes are easily repairable and unless something really unusual happens (something cracked in a catastrophic way, tire damage beyond repair...) you can't mostly fix anything, anywhere with little equipment. Sometimes a real repair can't be done, but mostly you can do something that allows you to get to your destination or somewhere where you can properly fix the bike.
By the way, you won't see me spending lots of money on smart-whatevers that depend on remote servers to work. I don't like what happens when the company goes bankrupt, shuts down the servers and you smart-whatever suddenly becomes a very expensive paperweight. I've seen that happen too many times. There's enough trash in the world.
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10-26-20, 01:08 PM
#183
Senior Member
At 69, energy over the long-haul is a concern. When you're hot, tired to the point of exhaustion, caked in dried sweat, and slightly dehydrated, a missed shift can be disastrous! On events such as the Copper Triangle, where the last 24-miles has an 18-mile unrelenting uphill, a missed shift can mean coming to a stop. If this happens, it is a real struggle to get going again on an 18% grade! Electronic shifting ensures there are no missed shifts. Electronic shifting also makes shifting under power much more even and less stress on the drive-train. For me, electronic shifting means the difference between a successful and fun event and one where it is one headache after another. In the six-years since going to electronic shifting, I can honestly say it is the most critical upgrade for me on longer rides of 100+ miles or 8,000+ vertical feet of climbing.
10-26-20, 01:09 PM
#184
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10-26-20, 01:14 PM
#185
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Earlier this year BC (Before COVID) I purchased a bike with SRAM Force eTap AXS.
So far I haven't been very impressed with electronic shifting or at least with SRAM's electronic shifting. I haven't tried EPS or Di2 so I can't really compare apples to apples. However I do have a couple of other bikes with Shimano Ultegra, 105, Campy Record 12 and Chorus 12--all mechanical. I don't think the SRAM eTap shifts any more consistently or reliably than any other groupset I have. As a matter of fact I sometimes think the mechanical groupsets might shift better. The one thing I do think is pretty cool, but not all necessary, is the wireless connectivity.
Am I missing something? What are others' thoughts on electronic shifting?
So far I haven't been very impressed with electronic shifting or at least with SRAM's electronic shifting. I haven't tried EPS or Di2 so I can't really compare apples to apples. However I do have a couple of other bikes with Shimano Ultegra, 105, Campy Record 12 and Chorus 12--all mechanical. I don't think the SRAM eTap shifts any more consistently or reliably than any other groupset I have. As a matter of fact I sometimes think the mechanical groupsets might shift better. The one thing I do think is pretty cool, but not all necessary, is the wireless connectivity.
Am I missing something? What are others' thoughts on electronic shifting?
10-26-20, 01:28 PM
#186
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The problem with electronics is that it's not a skillset that you can learn. Most electronics, including Di2, run on propietary software. You don't know how it works, Shimano doesn't want you to know, and unless you reverse engineer it, you won't know. So if a firmware update makes it fail or whatever happens, you're screwed regardless of what skills you have.
Being proprietary doesn't have anything to do with fixing or troubleshooting something. My cars and trucks are all proprietary with their stuff, yet if you read the service manuals and follow the steps, you can trouble shoot and determine a lot of stuff about all the electronics on a car and not even have to know anything about electronics. I used to bemoan electronics coming to cars too, but that ended when I realized I just needed to learn a few more simple concepts. There is a lot you can do even without a scan tool.
As for electronic shifting, you just have to quit looking at it as a magical something-or-other that does stuff.
10-26-20, 01:28 PM
#187
Senior Member
I don't have electronic shifting. It sounds like it works great, and it must for it to have been a success in the market. My view from afar:
Pluses:
- Sounds like it eliminates shifting cables, the largest source of wear, maintenance, and adjustment in the system, other than the chain.
- As others have said, once set up/adjusted, it stays there.
Minuses:
- Batteries.
- Non-graceful degradation mode and lack of field repairability. (I carry one long shift cable. A spare brake cable is less necessary as I have two brakes and can make it home with one. I've made it home with a broken shift cable but it involves a lot of walking up hills.)
- Shop maintainability; Is the system modular? Can you easily and cheaply replace just electronic bits? Or is the entire assembly trash? The latter sounds expensive. Read my name.
I love new electronic cameras, no expensive film and developing, in addition to the electronic controls that drastically increase user friendliness. But in the film era, I used a "stickshift" Nikon, because it was bombproof reliable, although it did require more skill for use than one with electronics. Mine didn't even have onboard light metering.
If I was bike touring in the boonies or overseas, I would definitely still use manual cable shifting, and bring spare cables (which are light and compact in my gear kit), unless the electronic modules have spares that are cheap, easy to carry, and easy to replace in the field.
Final note: I'll bet electronic shifting can be hacked by someone nefarious like the CIA or NSA. Wiki Michael Hastings. Interference during a race? Probably possible.
Pluses:
- Sounds like it eliminates shifting cables, the largest source of wear, maintenance, and adjustment in the system, other than the chain.
- As others have said, once set up/adjusted, it stays there.
Minuses:
- Batteries.
- Non-graceful degradation mode and lack of field repairability. (I carry one long shift cable. A spare brake cable is less necessary as I have two brakes and can make it home with one. I've made it home with a broken shift cable but it involves a lot of walking up hills.)
- Shop maintainability; Is the system modular? Can you easily and cheaply replace just electronic bits? Or is the entire assembly trash? The latter sounds expensive. Read my name.
I love new electronic cameras, no expensive film and developing, in addition to the electronic controls that drastically increase user friendliness. But in the film era, I used a "stickshift" Nikon, because it was bombproof reliable, although it did require more skill for use than one with electronics. Mine didn't even have onboard light metering.
If I was bike touring in the boonies or overseas, I would definitely still use manual cable shifting, and bring spare cables (which are light and compact in my gear kit), unless the electronic modules have spares that are cheap, easy to carry, and easy to replace in the field.
Final note: I'll bet electronic shifting can be hacked by someone nefarious like the CIA or NSA. Wiki Michael Hastings. Interference during a race? Probably possible.
Last edited by Duragrouch; 10-26-20 at 01:31 PM.
10-26-20, 03:00 PM
#188
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10-26-20, 03:06 PM
#189
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Does your new car have "drive by wire" meaning no mechanical connection between the steering wheel and the front wheels and the accelerator cable and engine?
Last edited by GlennR; 10-26-20 at 03:26 PM.
10-26-20, 03:24 PM
#190
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I've never tried e-shift, just read about it, so maybe I'm talking out of my butt, but I think the point isn't that the shifting is "better", it is just more consistent. Not only does the shift happen at the optimum point in your pedal stroke every time (I know I screw it up at least a couple of times per ride), but also the variability due to cable stretch, housing flex and friction, etc. is eliminated, at least in theory.
Plus, you don't have to replace cables and housing a couple of times per year.
There is something to be said for simplicity (and less cost!!), though, and going over your bike and giving it some TLC while changing cables/housing can't be a bad thing.
Either way, the point for many (obsessive tinkerers aside) is to be riding. Whatever gets you out there and keeps you out there with a minimum of fuss and at a price you're willing to pay is what is probably what is best for you.
(My ride: 1995 C'dale T700, bar end friction shifters.)
Plus, you don't have to replace cables and housing a couple of times per year.
There is something to be said for simplicity (and less cost!!), though, and going over your bike and giving it some TLC while changing cables/housing can't be a bad thing.
Either way, the point for many (obsessive tinkerers aside) is to be riding. Whatever gets you out there and keeps you out there with a minimum of fuss and at a price you're willing to pay is what is probably what is best for you.
(My ride: 1995 C'dale T700, bar end friction shifters.)
10-26-20, 03:27 PM
#191
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I know (most of) the logic of a PC and Android smartphones / tablets. I don't know how the rest work. Except for my car, it's not like they can get me stranded in the middle of nowhere.
Unfortunately I can't do anything about my car if it breaks down. Cars can't usually be repaired at the roadside anyway unless it's something minor.
Fortunately, bikes are easily repairable and unless something really unusual happens (something cracked in a catastrophic way, tire damage beyond repair...) you can't mostly fix anything, anywhere with little equipment. Sometimes a real repair can't be done, but mostly you can do something that allows you to get to your destination or somewhere where you can properly fix the bike.
By the way, you won't see me spending lots of money on smart-whatevers that depend on remote servers to work. I don't like what happens when the company goes bankrupt, shuts down the servers and you smart-whatever suddenly becomes a very expensive paperweight. I've seen that happen too many times. There's enough trash in the world.
Unfortunately I can't do anything about my car if it breaks down. Cars can't usually be repaired at the roadside anyway unless it's something minor.
Fortunately, bikes are easily repairable and unless something really unusual happens (something cracked in a catastrophic way, tire damage beyond repair...) you can't mostly fix anything, anywhere with little equipment. Sometimes a real repair can't be done, but mostly you can do something that allows you to get to your destination or somewhere where you can properly fix the bike.
By the way, you won't see me spending lots of money on smart-whatevers that depend on remote servers to work. I don't like what happens when the company goes bankrupt, shuts down the servers and you smart-whatever suddenly becomes a very expensive paperweight. I've seen that happen too many times. There's enough trash in the world.
10-26-20, 03:49 PM
#192
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10-26-20, 04:12 PM
#193
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10-26-20, 04:19 PM
#194
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I had an MGB with a Lucas electrical system. It was more "Fail to drive by wire".
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"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
10-26-20, 04:21 PM
#195
Senior Member
You do realize, I hope, that even if an electronic drivetrain does stop working, the bike will still be rideable - albeit with perhaps one speed (or two speeds, if the RD is the part that fails)? This is pretty much identical to the situation I mentioned earlier - the two broken (NOT field repairable) RD cables in the past couple years.
A bike with one speed is simply not rideable where I live.
10-26-20, 04:23 PM
#196
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I just can’t think of any other reason why someone would be so opposed to something – especially something that no one is making him purchase.
I just don’t have enough energy to so strenuously insist that other people are spending their money incorrectly.
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10-26-20, 04:29 PM
#197
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The comparison to cars with multiple electronic systems versus carburetors and points/condenser distributors, etc. may be apt, but perhaps not the way that he thinks. Carbs and coil/distributor systems were very wasteful, required a lot of maintenance (remember taking your car in for a tune up every 3000 miles?) and often finicky. Modern intake and ignition systems are essentially black boxes to the general public and even the average 'shade tree mechanic' nowadays, but they're WAY more reliable.
So, many of us have had derailleur cables fail on rides and had to either ride home in the smallest cog or jury rig something, or make The Call Of Shame. What's the 'stranding rate' on Di2 or eTap? Maybe they're more reliable than mechanical?
So, many of us have had derailleur cables fail on rides and had to either ride home in the smallest cog or jury rig something, or make The Call Of Shame. What's the 'stranding rate' on Di2 or eTap? Maybe they're more reliable than mechanical?
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"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
"Don't take life so serious-it ain't nohow permanent."
"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
10-26-20, 04:37 PM
#198
Junior Member
Does anyone here own a car w/ a DCT? Primarily a Porsche w/ PDK(Duraace) or VW w/ DSG(105)? A lot of valid points being discussed here - sounds similar the arguments(ahem discussions) on car boards everywhere, I myself have a DSG equipped VW. I probably will never go back to a manual, sad thing about it my kid will probably never know how to drive a stick. I have yet to experience Di2 but I know I would get it if the opportunity arose for me.
10-26-20, 04:41 PM
#199
Senior Member
I think you just need to admit it: you can’t afford an electronic drivetrain, and you’re jealous.
I just can’t think of any other reason why someone would be so opposed to something – especially something that no one is making him purchase.
I just don’t have enough energy to so strenuously insist that other people are spending their money incorrectly.
I just can’t think of any other reason why someone would be so opposed to something – especially something that no one is making him purchase.
I just don’t have enough energy to so strenuously insist that other people are spending their money incorrectly.
That I chose to ride a 1200€ bike doesn't mean I can't buy a 10000€ one. I could buy a Di2 bike if I wanted. I could buy several of them. I just don't see the point.
It seems there are pro cyclists that still prefer mechanical groupsets. Maybe they're too poor to buy electronic too...
You can spend your money however you want. I have my opinion and you have yours. I don't care.
10-26-20, 04:42 PM
#200
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The comparison to cars with multiple electronic systems versus carburetors and points/condenser distributors, etc. may be apt, but perhaps not the way that he thinks. Carbs and coil/distributor systems were very wasteful, required a lot of maintenance (remember taking your car in for a tune up every 3000 miles?) and often finicky. Modern intake and ignition systems are essentially black boxes to the general public and even the average 'shade tree mechanic' nowadays, but they're WAY more reliable.
So, many of us have had derailleur cables fail on rides and had to either ride home in the smallest cog or jury rig something, or make The Call Of Shame. What's the 'stranding rate' on Di2 or eTap? Maybe they're more reliable than mechanical?
So, many of us have had derailleur cables fail on rides and had to either ride home in the smallest cog or jury rig something, or make The Call Of Shame. What's the 'stranding rate' on Di2 or eTap? Maybe they're more reliable than mechanical?
I wonder if Amt0571 only talks to people on a landline, with a rotary dial phone? Because those never lost a connection, while cell phones are comparatively unreliable.