sdee

Hi Everybody, First time poster here, been searching the internet for days trying to find clues about this frame. I found this forum and it has a great community so I thought I would post here.

I have purchased a frame that had zeus dropouts and headset besides that I cannot find a zeus frame that is identical to this, after reading through various posts here there was mention that Raleigh and Carlton used zeus dropouts but I cant for the life of me match it to any 1 particular model.

Some of the noticeable features it has BCM of the head 'lugs' has zeus dropouts both front and back and after removing some of the respray there is green underneath. I didn't manage to find a serial number on the bottom bracket.

Have attached some pictures, any help is very much appreciated

Thank you

sdee

Seat post 27.2

USAZorro

Does the frame look anything like this? Look at the lug shapes, the rear brake arc and the chrome. This is a 1971/72 Competition. This didn't come in green, but there was a 1969-ish version that came in a deeper green. I am not familiar with what dropouts those had.

Other Green Raleighs of the time included Internationals and Super Tourers.

fietsbob

You could buy Zeus frame parts, without being a Zeus or even Spanish made frame.

I used a Zeus Fork crown on the bike frame I built in the mid 70's ... & a Cinelli BB & Campag Dropouts..

unworthy1

Super Tourers had Huret DOs for those Huret Jubile (or Jubilee) RDs, IIRC

Stevensb 

This 1976 Condor Sienna (British) was built in Italy out of Columbus tubing withZeus fork ends and dropouts.

cheers.

Brad

sdee

Yes! Ive seen this model, seems the closest in terms of looks with lugs and forks, the part that threw me is the rear break arc and other cable routes on the chain stay, and top tube.
The other part that was hard to find on the internet was if this had the indents on chain stay as my bike does not have them.

I have attached photos now. Thanks for all the photo and reply, really appreciate it

Hey fietsbob,
Thanks for the reply! Yes I read about this also and could quite possibly be a custom frame. Just got this voice in my head telling me to find out for sure or as for sure as can be.
😂

Hey Brad,
Super clean bike! Mine does not look like this. The forks and the rear forks (not sure the correct term for this) where it meets the seat post is also different in design Thanks for the reply!

sdee

Thanks All! let me know if further photos would be helpful

USAZorro

I see some similarities with my Competition, ("rapid-taper" chainstays - which aren't crimped), but I also see differences - the most disqualifying of these being differences in the head tube lugs, so I rather doubt you have a Raleigh Competition with some braze-ons lopped off and chrome removed. I think there's a pretty good chance that this isn't a Raleigh at all, but with them having made so many variations of things - especially in the early 70's with parts shortages - that I can't say for certain.

Might you have a serial number that you could share the location and format of?

unworthy1

BCM long point headlugs and the fork with Vagner crown BUT all the extra washers on that Zeus HS makes me wonder if the fork is OEM, could be IF the HS is a much shorter-stack replacement and it DOES have Zeus forkends, but....unusual. Looks like a pretty nice frame, no idea of a make but if there's a serial number it will help PLUS what's the threading (BB Shell and fork) and size of seatpost?

sdee

Thanks for the info this helps a lot, nice to know some of the extra terminology of certain areas of the bike(Rapid Taper, Braze Ons) I have tried to remove the paint on the bottom bracket where I thought the serial number would be but I can’t see any stamps. Maybe I’ll have to completely strip the paint off and do a more thorough check. I’ll try and do this over the weekend. Thanks for you help!

sdee

thats great thank you nice to know the lugs are long point will help me investigate further

Yes I was wondering why the fork stuck so far out (looked strange) I’ll try to hunt down the serial number, but no obvious sign of it. Not sure about the threading or how to check it myself. I’ll take it to the local shop and see if they can tell me and report back.

the seatpost is 27.2

thank so much for the reply!

unworthy1

27.2 seatpost is a good size to have (indicates most likely something like 531 DB tubing) do you have any spare BB cups that are marked with BSC, BSA, or 1.37 x 24 you can do a test screw-in? I'm guessing this has Imperial tubing so most likely that will be the BB threading too (AKA: British, English, ISO) but ya never know!

USAZorro

The serial number on my Competition is on the drive-side dropout - which in itself seems to be a bit out of the ordinary - suggesting it was built in Nottingham, rather than Worksop - where the other higher-end frames were made.

sdee

Okay, great I’ll have a look thank you

juvela

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lug pattern is BOCAMA Super-Professionnelle

shell is BOCAMA Professionelle

crown is Vagner model DP+

for a Tube Investments product of this era one would expect to see a no-slide pibb and a chainstay stop

of course these could have been present and were removed. if this were the case one would expect to be able to view the evidence with frame in bare metal...

interesting to note that chainstays are pinned

when you have head fittings disassembled you could examine interior of head tube for any indication of head emblem fastener holes being filled in

use of Zeus bits and rapier pattern chainstays in Britain was not confined to TI at this epoch






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unworthy1

so with a 27.2 seatpost and (TBC) British threading (I know, that's TBC) are you thinking this could be Vitus tubing? Some other brand (but not Reynolds 531)?

sdee

Thats sounds good 531 tubing from what I have read was nice. The bike does feel noticeably lighter that my previous 'vintage frame' (Miyata 312) this was one of the main reasons wh I purchased not really knowing to much about the make although the seller told me it was most likely a zeus, but after alot of research into zeus frames none of them matched so I have ruled this out.

I ended up trying a BB 1.37 x 24 and it fits its screws in counter clockwise on the drive side and clockwise on the non drive side. That was nice to figure out so thanks for the tip! Would this mean it is in fact imperial tubing?

sdee

Thanks for the reply and informative imagery! I did see the lug images but wasn't sure because there was no die cut in them which threw me but nice to know the exact bottom bracket used.

Yes I noticed the nails through the BB into the chain stays and wasn't sure if this was 'normal' or not for a bike this age. Is there any particular meaning to this method?

I removed the headset to see if there were any holes for a badge, from what I can see It doesn't seem to have any.

The fork does seem to protrude alot hmm what would be the best method to put this together without using spacers?

sdee

To be honest, I have no idea on the tubing. Really was just trying to figure out what brand it was or if it was a brand at all. This I guess was the main reason of posting here as there is so much more expert and solid advice/knowlage without me second guessing or assuming its something its not. I guess the more info I know about it will help inform the build to an extent.

How does Vitus and 531 compare?

Thanks Again for the info and reply

unworthy1

They compare very favorably, at least the 172 and 971 are very much in the same ballpark as far as metallurgical composition (well maybe Chrome-moly vs Manganese-moly) and the wall thicknesses, Vitus 980 is even thinner and lighter, more akin to Reynolds 753. They only certain proof is if you strip this down to very bare metal you MIGHT find some tiny faint stamps in the tubes that will say Reynolds 531 DB, not certain if Vitus did this on their tubes. But yes this is British/English/ISO threading and combined with the seat post size and other features including the Zeus ends it sure seems most likely to be British-made, but no idea from me of the make, this doesn't tic the boxes of any well-known Brit brands. EDIT: just saw another thread that asks "did Vitus stamp their steel tubes" and apparently, yes they did but it's seldom seen or recorded, there's an example of "SUPER VITUS" stamped on a fork blade....

sdee

Great, going to give it a go today, I’ll look out for some of these markings and report back. Thanks!

juvela

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lugs -

the BOCAMA Super-Professional lug pattern was offered both with and without the cutouts; hence your confusion.

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"nails" -

this method of construction is referred to as "pinning" and frames exhibiting it are said to be "pinned." simply a means of holding all the bits in place in preparation for brazing; neither a plus nor a minus.

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steerer length -

if fork ends match dropouts do not think it a replacement. possible it was made for someone who wished the option of running a clamp style headset which requires the additional steerer length. clamp style headsets were pretty much gone from the scene by the time this was fabricated in the mid-to-late 1960's.

now that you have the head fittings disassembled you could closely examine the steerer under strong illumination to check for a tubing maker's mark and/or a serial number. sometimes the markings are struck quite lightly and one must check in good light to view them.

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forum member MauriceMoss , AKA "Detective Chief Inspector Moss" , may drop in on his next forum sojourn; for the enlightenment of us all with respect to the frame's identity.

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sdee

thank you for the detailed response appreciate it

okay will have a closer look at the steerer I didn’t manage to spend enough time on stripping the paint off so will have to continue and update you all once complete. What was interesting is that it seems underneath the paint it wasn’t all green. Have attached a photo.

sdee