downhill windy road help
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I prefer to have my butt in the saddle with my weight shifted over the front wheel as much as possible on a high speed decent. You want maximum contact with the bike and lifting out of the saddle will make the bike feel more ‘jumpy’ as all the motion is now translated through only your elbows and knees even though your weight is supplying the same downforce.
Don’t ride the brakes, instead pump them to modulate your speed. Applying brake decreases your tire adhesion to the road. This can be especially critical in turns because your tires also need extra adhesion to hold on to the road as the bike leans, therefore scrub your speed prior to entering hairpin turn so you don’t need to brake until you exit the turn.
If possible ride in the right tire track in the right lane, especially if you’re going as fast or faster than the traffic. The car tire track here is generally clean of debris and smoother than any other part of the lane. Look far down the road for trouble, remember at 35mph you’re traveling almost 20 yards every second which is a thousand times faster than my Detroit Lions can cross the red zone.
Don’t ride the brakes, instead pump them to modulate your speed. Applying brake decreases your tire adhesion to the road. This can be especially critical in turns because your tires also need extra adhesion to hold on to the road as the bike leans, therefore scrub your speed prior to entering hairpin turn so you don’t need to brake until you exit the turn.
If possible ride in the right tire track in the right lane, especially if you’re going as fast or faster than the traffic. The car tire track here is generally clean of debris and smoother than any other part of the lane. Look far down the road for trouble, remember at 35mph you’re traveling almost 20 yards every second which is a thousand times faster than my Detroit Lions can cross the red zone.
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#27
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Yes, there is a lower limit... and the larger the tire, the lower that limit is. Thus, as a I said, the larger tire alows lower pressure.
As far as rolling resistance.... Sure, if you drop it too much you will have more resistance. But if - as you say - the larger tire rolls faster at the same pressures, then you can drop the pressure until the RR is the same.
As far as rolling resistance.... Sure, if you drop it too much you will have more resistance. But if - as you say - the larger tire rolls faster at the same pressures, then you can drop the pressure until the RR is the same.
Out of curiosity, do you run the same pressure in a set of 25s and a set of 38s?
I don’t ride 37mm tires much. I might go as wide as a 35mm tire on a road bike but seldom wider. The calculator suggests that I use 60/92 psi (front/rear) for a 32mm tire. 90 psi is about what I use for that wide a tire.
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Body position on the bike is job #1 when descending. If you don't have that, being good at everything else might not matter.
Pedals at 3 & 9 supporting yourself with your feet and core muscles not your hands or butt, torso hinged at the hips, back of butt behind rear of saddle (you should be able to feel the wings of the saddle on the backs of your thighs), elbows bent/pulled in, shoulders low and hands in the drops covering brakes (don't death grip the bars or the brake levers, gentle inputs), head and eyes UP looking forward much further than you normally would. Roughly, MPH x 1.5 is Feet Per Second, NEVER look away. Cornering outside, inside outside will give you a better view of what's ahead (and a view of you to others much sooner) but temper that with off camber surfaces or rough stuff which should be avoided. Not all curves in a descent have to be made, IE sometimes it's safe/most efficient to ride straight thru one to get to the entry point of the next (without crossing the center line). Knowing how to brake effectively is VERY important. I won't go into it here because I don't have time until January to debate proper technique with the "engineers" or anyone else who's never exceeded 100 KPH on a descent
There's more to it than this ^^ but that's the quick and dirty. If something surprises you on a descent, it's your fault.
Pedals at 3 & 9 supporting yourself with your feet and core muscles not your hands or butt, torso hinged at the hips, back of butt behind rear of saddle (you should be able to feel the wings of the saddle on the backs of your thighs), elbows bent/pulled in, shoulders low and hands in the drops covering brakes (don't death grip the bars or the brake levers, gentle inputs), head and eyes UP looking forward much further than you normally would. Roughly, MPH x 1.5 is Feet Per Second, NEVER look away. Cornering outside, inside outside will give you a better view of what's ahead (and a view of you to others much sooner) but temper that with off camber surfaces or rough stuff which should be avoided. Not all curves in a descent have to be made, IE sometimes it's safe/most efficient to ride straight thru one to get to the entry point of the next (without crossing the center line). Knowing how to brake effectively is VERY important. I won't go into it here because I don't have time until January to debate proper technique with the "engineers" or anyone else who's never exceeded 100 KPH on a descent
There's more to it than this ^^ but that's the quick and dirty. If something surprises you on a descent, it's your fault.
Last edited by nomadmax; 07-26-20 at 06:34 AM.
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It is what is responsible for the larger tire patch you mentioned earlier.
We must not be riding the same larger tires, because in my experience, a set of high performance 35-38s roll as fast as any set of 23-25s I’ve ever tried at literally half the tire pressure.
The reason many people have the impression that larger tires at lower pressures roll slower is that up until recently, anything over 28s were eaither cheap commuter tires or bombproof touring tires (like Marathon Supremes)... both of which are slow rollers, unless you pump them up rock hard. Try a set of Rene Herse tires or something like a Gravel King slick in the mid 30s sizes, and it is a very different story.
But back to the OPs issue... if you are having issues keeping control over rough surfaces, lower pressure is a no brainer, IMO. And larger tires allow that. If he can go up a size on the tires, the corresponding drop in pressure will help him.
As an aside... At 175 lbs, I’m done with anything smaller than 35s, which I would never run over 45/55 psi unless I had a load. For now I’ve settled on 38s at 38/45 for most uses, maybe go a tad higher for all smooth pavement (which does not exists around here). I did the small tire/high pressure thing for many, many years (thinking the same things you are saying) before trying a set of performance 33s (Jack Brown). It was an eye opener for me and I am never going back. It was like leaving an abusive relationship.
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It is what is responsible for the larger tire patch you mentioned earlier.
We must not be riding the same larger tires, because in my experience, a set of high performance 35-38s roll as fast as any set of 23-25s I’ve ever tried at literally half the tire pressure.
The reason many people have the impression that larger tires at lower pressures roll slower is that up until recently, anything over 28s were eaither cheap commuter tires or bombproof touring tires (like Marathon Supremes)... both of which are slow rollers, unless you pump them up rock hard. Try a set of Rene Herse tires or something like a Gravel King slick in the mid 30s sizes, and it is a very different story.
But back to the OPs issue... if you are having issues keeping control over rough surfaces, lower pressure is a no brainer, IMO. And larger tires allow that. If he can go up a size on the tires, the corresponding drop in pressure will help him.
As an aside... At 175 lbs, I’m done with anything smaller than 35s, which I would never run over 45/55 psi unless I had a load. For now I’ve settled on 38s at 38/45 for most uses, maybe go a tad higher for all smooth pavement (which does not exists around here). I did the small tire/high pressure thing for many, many years (thinking the same things you are saying) before trying a set of performance 33s (Jack Brown). It was an eye opener for me and I am never going back. It was like leaving an abusive relationship.
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#31
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On pavement, I can do about an average speed of about 12mph on the knobs (it drops to 10mph on dirt). On the wide road tires (32 to 35mm tires), I can average about 15mph. On the narrow tired road bike, I can do around 17 mph. There’s only about a 5mph differential between all the bikes. That’s not much.
That's also the difference between a C level club ride and a B+ ride.
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That’s a 5 mph between a wide knobbed tire and a race bike tire. That’s not that much given the differences between the tires. For my road bikes the difference is more like 3 mph.
I don’t follow club ride rules so it makes no difference. I also wouldn’t show up for a fast road ride on a mountain bike with knobbed tires. On the other hand, I wouldn’t show up at a mountain bike ride on race tires...or any road tire for that matter.
That's also the difference between a C level club ride and a B+ ride.
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Caveat: I have not read all the responses. I am assuming you mean "winding" rather than roads hit by wind. It would also be helpful to know whether you take a proper line, aka: the racer's line, when going through corners.
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No difference? To you? So what?
Anyway, the point wasn't "club rules" It shows that 3-5 mph is a big difference. It's the difference between a kind of slow rider and a kind of fast rider. And lots of people are interested in going faster.
It probably doesn't matter toodling around the neighborhood.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-26-20 at 03:50 PM.
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No,
Much of this discussion is subjective. This point is not. The size of the tire patch is a function of tire pressure, NOT tire volume. For a given load, two tires of different sizes at the same pressure with have the same area of contact patch.
None of the advantages I mentioned (comfort, traction, control on rough surface) will be gained if you run a larger tire but don't drop the pressure. Other than gaining some float in deeper loose stuff, you will gain almost nothing, Especially on the road. You may disagree, but you are in a small minority.
I did not say ALL tires would give you the same rolling resistance at 50% pressure I was speaking about the ones I use.
But regarding that comparison; that is not a good comparison as these are completely different tires. They are NOT different sized version of the same tire. The larger tire has an extra puncture resistance layer (which will add RR). Also, it is not a slick... it has some tread.. Remember, I specified PERFORMANCE tire, and NOT a touring tire. And then there is the issue of the reliability of using roller drum testing to predict real world results. This is not universally accepted. I take them with a grain of salt as they deform the tire differently then a flat surface does.
Anyway, this topic (tire pressure and larger tires) has been discussed and reported on exhaustively. I'm not going to rehash it here. When it comes to the issue of pressure and rolling resistance in larger tires, my take on this is the one gaining more acceptance as more people try high performance high volume road tires (which were few and far between up until a few years ago).
Much of this discussion is subjective. This point is not. The size of the tire patch is a function of tire pressure, NOT tire volume. For a given load, two tires of different sizes at the same pressure with have the same area of contact patch.
None of the advantages I mentioned (comfort, traction, control on rough surface) will be gained if you run a larger tire but don't drop the pressure. Other than gaining some float in deeper loose stuff, you will gain almost nothing, Especially on the road. You may disagree, but you are in a small minority.
There is a difference in rolling resistance but I really question the claim that it’s half. Comparing a Vittoria Voyager (37mm) to a Vittoria Zaffiro (25mm) on Rolling Resistance, cutting the pressure in half doesn’t result in a lower rolling resistance for the wider tire. The Zaffiro has a 16 W rolling resistance at 100psi. The Voyager has a rolling resistance of 21W at 45 psi. The rolling resistance of the Voyager doesn’t equal the Zaffiro’s until 75 psi. In other words, a “literally” half the tire pressure, a wider tire from the same manufacturer wouldn’t roll faster. It would roll the same at 20% reduction in pressure and roll slightly faster (14W vs 16W) as the narrower tire at 90% of the pressure. That also doesn’t take into account the change in aerodynamic drag nor the difference in weight (150g of rotating weight)
.
.
But regarding that comparison; that is not a good comparison as these are completely different tires. They are NOT different sized version of the same tire. The larger tire has an extra puncture resistance layer (which will add RR). Also, it is not a slick... it has some tread.. Remember, I specified PERFORMANCE tire, and NOT a touring tire. And then there is the issue of the reliability of using roller drum testing to predict real world results. This is not universally accepted. I take them with a grain of salt as they deform the tire differently then a flat surface does.
Anyway, this topic (tire pressure and larger tires) has been discussed and reported on exhaustively. I'm not going to rehash it here. When it comes to the issue of pressure and rolling resistance in larger tires, my take on this is the one gaining more acceptance as more people try high performance high volume road tires (which were few and far between up until a few years ago).
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Just put some 28 Gatorskins on my Specialized Roubaix (there is plenty of room cyccommute ). You guys are right, here is a huge difference in comfort (running at 90psi (115 is max). Should I run at a lower psi? Thanks for the inspiration!
Also tested the lifting weight (not standing) off the seat and it works! Ready to try some hills again.
Also tested the lifting weight (not standing) off the seat and it works! Ready to try some hills again.
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Went for a quick ride - wow, why haven't I done this before? For years I was riding skinny tires because it looked cool and I thought it made for a better ride. I love the handling and comfort going from 23 to 28!!!
Thanks sooooooo much everyone.
BTW, so far I like the Gatorskins.
Thanks sooooooo much everyone.
BTW, so far I like the Gatorskins.
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A HUGE thank you to everyone who replied. I just finished the same ride that I originally had issues going downhill only this time I used 28s with lower pressure instead of 23s, stayed in the drops, feathered the brakes and lifted (slightly) my butt off the seat - it felt like a whole new bike!!!! Not only did I never feel like I was about to lose control like last time, I actually felt like the bike was sticking to the road so much better that I was able to ride more aggressively.
I'm really liking the Continental Gatorskins in 28 that I got. Great traction
I'm so happy right now and I love my bike. No more 23s for me!
I'm really liking the Continental Gatorskins in 28 that I got. Great traction
I'm so happy right now and I love my bike. No more 23s for me!
#39
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I use a technique that is helpful in skiing as well. If I am going fast I went my body weight off the saddle and distributed as evenly across the bike as possible. Being off the seat and relaxed moves the vibration through the whole body making it much easier to ride. I also use my upper highs to grip the radius of my saddle.
I use 25’s on my bike but as supple a tire as possible. Conti 5000 while otherwise great are horrible on chop. The best tires to keep you confident are the Pirelli P Zero, Veloflex Corsa Evo and the Vittoria Corsa 2.0. All three are supple. The latter two are very high TPI cotton/poly casing and are like putting slippers on your bike. The Pirelli is a vulcanized tire and will last the longest but still manages to be incredibly smooth.
I use 25’s on my bike but as supple a tire as possible. Conti 5000 while otherwise great are horrible on chop. The best tires to keep you confident are the Pirelli P Zero, Veloflex Corsa Evo and the Vittoria Corsa 2.0. All three are supple. The latter two are very high TPI cotton/poly casing and are like putting slippers on your bike. The Pirelli is a vulcanized tire and will last the longest but still manages to be incredibly smooth.
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A HUGE thank you to everyone who replied - you may have prevented a crash:
Was going down a hill pretty fast when I saw it - a gnarly patch of tree root distorted road. A little voice inside my head said "lift your butt, don't hit the brakes, stay relaxed"
It was scary but surprisingly stable. I'm positive if I was sitting in my seat and hit the brakes it would have been bad.
so thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!
Was going down a hill pretty fast when I saw it - a gnarly patch of tree root distorted road. A little voice inside my head said "lift your butt, don't hit the brakes, stay relaxed"
It was scary but surprisingly stable. I'm positive if I was sitting in my seat and hit the brakes it would have been bad.
so thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!
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A HUGE thank you to everyone who replied - you may have prevented a crash:
Was going down a hill pretty fast when I saw it - a gnarly patch of tree root distorted road. A little voice inside my head said "lift your butt, don't hit the brakes, stay relaxed"
It was scary but surprisingly stable. I'm positive if I was sitting in my seat and hit the brakes it would have been bad.
so thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!
Was going down a hill pretty fast when I saw it - a gnarly patch of tree root distorted road. A little voice inside my head said "lift your butt, don't hit the brakes, stay relaxed"
It was scary but surprisingly stable. I'm positive if I was sitting in my seat and hit the brakes it would have been bad.
so thanks everyone!!!!!!!!!
"Nothing good happens when at the last second you pull hard on the brakes." -Juliet Elliot
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Want on several more windy hills and its been fantastic. No more "I'm about to lose control" feeling - in fact I am more aggressive as I've gained confidence.
Thanks everyone
The 28mm tires with lower pressure and better technique made a huge difference
Thanks everyone
The 28mm tires with lower pressure and better technique made a huge difference
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Another point - use a firm grip (not a death grip!) but keep you wrists and arms loose. I was taught to always ride conditions like that on the drops so if I did hit that unexpected whatever and my grip did come loose, my hands are still on the drops, meaning I can trust my less than death grip is perfectly safe. And less than a death grip plus less than tight arms means they act as shock absorbers, allowing the front tire to track better over rough pavement.
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The only piece of advice I didn’t see above, was when fast cornering, with your outside pedal down (inside up) when you point your inside knee out about 45* you can gain additional stability. Watch some videos on YouTube of racers descending mtn passes to see what I mean. You don’t need to be a racer to get the benefit.
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I have a 2007 Specialized Roubaix Comp triple. Great bike. However, I have never felt confident going downhill on windy roads that weren't completely smooth. I always feel like if there is some bumpiness (gravel or those "wake up you are about to go into the opposite lane divots") and I am riding the brakes that I'm on the verge of losing control. I get the sense that the brakes are about to chatter locking up after losing contact with the road momentarily. I have felt this with other bikes so I think it is my technique more than anything.
Doesn't seem to matter if I'm using the drops or top of the bars, as soon as I use the brakes with road chatter I feel like "this might be the ride". Probably doesn't matter that I'm on a straight or windy road, I guess I just ride windy hills more often. Any suggestions? I'm not going super fast, maybe 30mph max.
Anybody else have this experience?
Doesn't seem to matter if I'm using the drops or top of the bars, as soon as I use the brakes with road chatter I feel like "this might be the ride". Probably doesn't matter that I'm on a straight or windy road, I guess I just ride windy hills more often. Any suggestions? I'm not going super fast, maybe 30mph max.
Anybody else have this experience?
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The OP is successfully dealing with the issue. There's no reason to condemn him to a life of 3-wheel misery.
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Another fantastic ride. The technique improvements along with 28 tires at lower pressure makes the bike feel incredible.
And someone asked, I really didn't mean windy as in blowing, I meant windy (winding) as in lots of curves.
To the person saying the Roubaix is the wrong tool for the job I say, meh. Works for me
And someone asked, I really didn't mean windy as in blowing, I meant windy (winding) as in lots of curves.
To the person saying the Roubaix is the wrong tool for the job I say, meh. Works for me
#48
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Symox - one other suggestion with regard to overall bike handling (and specifically to descending) is if you have access to a mountain bike get out and ride some trails. Descend on narrow single track and you'll naturally get your butt off the seat (sometimes even behind and below the "normal" seat level depending on how steep).
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I've been doing a lot more riding and I cannot tell you how much more stable I am on the bike with the change in tires and technique. For years I was scared I was going to lose control on fast downhill runs. Now the bike literally feels like it is sticking to the road!
Thanks again everyone!!!
Thanks again everyone!!!
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Join Date: Jul 2020
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Bikes: '23 Poseidon Redwood, '07 Specialized Roubaix Comp Triple, '12 Gravity Fixie, '21 Liv Rove 4, '06? Giant EB Spirit
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151 Posts
Wow!
With 28 tires at 80 psi and using correct technique I was able to go down the steepest street full speed twice. It felt secure - I no longer get that “about to lose control” feeling anymore. I have NEVER gone down this street without using brakes before.
Thank you everyone- you are changing my riding for the better.
Thank you everyone- you are changing my riding for the better.
Last edited by Symox; 12-26-20 at 09:32 PM.