A Year with AXS Red, Can It Be Improved?
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A Year with AXS Red, Can It Be Improved?
Last year I switched from my trusty 2014 Roubaix with Dura Ace Di2 to a 2020 Roubaix with AXS Red. In my view, Di2 is/was the gold standard for shift quality. I could shift under reasonable load and the derailleurs never missed a beat.
I’ve spent a reasonable amount of time dialing in the rear derailleur of my AXS setup, but I can’t get the same quality. I get funky shifts 2-3 times per ride, but in general the shift quality is fine. It’s difficult to dial out that last bit of funkiness because it happens so rarely. I’m wondering if it’s just that the derailleur is inherently limited? Shifting under load definitely isn’t as reliable as Di2. If I try to shift under load, the result can range from acceptable to very disruptive. For those of you with experience riding Di2, do you have the same observations about AXS in comparison? I love the 12 speed range of AXS, but I think Di2 is a better product overall, particularly given the hoods are much more comfortable.
I’ve spent a reasonable amount of time dialing in the rear derailleur of my AXS setup, but I can’t get the same quality. I get funky shifts 2-3 times per ride, but in general the shift quality is fine. It’s difficult to dial out that last bit of funkiness because it happens so rarely. I’m wondering if it’s just that the derailleur is inherently limited? Shifting under load definitely isn’t as reliable as Di2. If I try to shift under load, the result can range from acceptable to very disruptive. For those of you with experience riding Di2, do you have the same observations about AXS in comparison? I love the 12 speed range of AXS, but I think Di2 is a better product overall, particularly given the hoods are much more comfortable.
#2
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Shifting under load can mean many things - a little extra load, or way too late I'm about to stop pedaling type of load. The later should never be expected to make for a smooth shift. I assume that your RD alignment has been checked. Even new frames can need the RD hanger aligned. I can tell you that the AXS chain works nicely with Campy 12 and Campy's 11-34 cassette sure has better spacing than the AXS 10-33. The sprocket spacing is very close to the same, with SRAM being a bit wider. I read one report of a user with a Campy electronic 12 drivetrain using a SRAM AXS cassette with no problem.
Shimano should have DA 12 speed out by this fall. If not, they're lagging more than usual. It will most likely require another new hub, just like SRAM 12. There will be legitimate comparisons when all three have 12 speed. For now, comparing 11 to 12 isn't meaningful, unless you really don't need 12 speed.
I have two bikes with Chorus 12 that I installed last July. No complaints so far.
Shimano should have DA 12 speed out by this fall. If not, they're lagging more than usual. It will most likely require another new hub, just like SRAM 12. There will be legitimate comparisons when all three have 12 speed. For now, comparing 11 to 12 isn't meaningful, unless you really don't need 12 speed.
I have two bikes with Chorus 12 that I installed last July. No complaints so far.
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I don’t have any wild expectations for the derailleurs under load. I generally try to remove some load when shifting the rear on a steep hill unless I’m really going after it. I find that with Di2 I can downshift under load one gear (spinning, not standing and cranking) without any complaint from the RD and cassette. AXS can’t quite get there - at least not 100% of the time. I find myself having to unload the chain a bit more when shifting one to two gears going uphill. The handful of bad shifts I experience are a mystery.
The upside of SRAM’s system is that I get a greater range of gears, which was the primary motivation for the switch. I disagree that comparing the 11 to 12-speed performance isn’t meaningful, as the comparison reveals the pros and cons of the two systems. If Shimano can offer a 12 speed electronic drivetrain with the reliability and precision of the current 11-speed Di2, I think they would outclass AXS. That’s not to say AXS is bad. It’s fine, and even great under most circumstances, but it lacks that last 5% of polish that Di2 offers.
I hadn’t considered Campagnolo as a third alternative. For the most part the bikes I ride have Shimano or SRAM. My post isn’t meant to be critical but rather to elicit response from others that have made the comparison. Perhaps there is a way to dial in better performance? Or perhaps others don’t feel there’s a performance gap.
The upside of SRAM’s system is that I get a greater range of gears, which was the primary motivation for the switch. I disagree that comparing the 11 to 12-speed performance isn’t meaningful, as the comparison reveals the pros and cons of the two systems. If Shimano can offer a 12 speed electronic drivetrain with the reliability and precision of the current 11-speed Di2, I think they would outclass AXS. That’s not to say AXS is bad. It’s fine, and even great under most circumstances, but it lacks that last 5% of polish that Di2 offers.
I hadn’t considered Campagnolo as a third alternative. For the most part the bikes I ride have Shimano or SRAM. My post isn’t meant to be critical but rather to elicit response from others that have made the comparison. Perhaps there is a way to dial in better performance? Or perhaps others don’t feel there’s a performance gap.
#4
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Try the weight weenies forum. More folks there using high end drivetrains. I quickly found a you tube video that shows the adjustment procedure, by contender bicycles. Looked simple. The derailleur hanger alignment is still important. My last new frame needed a tweak.
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=156231
Just for kicks, you could try a Campy 12 chain. It's a bit wider, but should work. I always remove the thick grease applied at the factory and relube before using and use a sram eagle 12 quick link to join it. That avoids the need for a campy tool for the joining pin.
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=156231
Just for kicks, you could try a Campy 12 chain. It's a bit wider, but should work. I always remove the thick grease applied at the factory and relube before using and use a sram eagle 12 quick link to join it. That avoids the need for a campy tool for the joining pin.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 04-05-20 at 09:17 AM.
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The upside of SRAM’s system is that I get a greater range of gears, which was the primary motivation for the switch. I disagree that comparing the 11 to 12-speed performance isn’t meaningful, as the comparison reveals the pros and cons of the two systems. If Shimano can offer a 12 speed electronic drivetrain with the reliability and precision of the current 11-speed Di2, I think they would outclass AXS. That’s not to say AXS is bad. It’s fine, and even great under most circumstances, but it lacks that last 5% of polish that Di2 offers,
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I just can't imagine giving up Di2 quality to go to SRAM to chase one extra cog.
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Try the weight weenies forum. More folks there using high end drivetrains. I quickly found a you tube video that shows the adjustment procedure, by contender bicycles. Looked simple. The derailleur hanger alignment is still important. My last new frame needed a tweak.
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=156231
Just for kicks, you could try a Campy 12 chain. It's a bit wider, but should work. I always remove the thick grease applied at the factory and relube before using and use a sram eagle 12 quick link to join it. That avoids the need for a campy tool for the joining pin.
https://weightweenies.starbike.com/f...p?f=3&t=156231
Just for kicks, you could try a Campy 12 chain. It's a bit wider, but should work. I always remove the thick grease applied at the factory and relube before using and use a sram eagle 12 quick link to join it. That avoids the need for a campy tool for the joining pin.
#9
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There is no such thing as dialing in a manual group by anyone. By their nature you have the ability to jam it into another gear regardless of loads and conditions. This means that you can get your system working perfectly and three to four weeks later it is jumping gears because of wear in the shifting systems somewhere. My Campy drove me absolutely crazy until I changed over to Di2. I won't go back.
I can't say enough good things about Campy 12 mechanical. I really like that my two chorus groups cost about the same as one force 12 group.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 04-06-20 at 08:05 AM.
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I am still hoping next version of Di2 is wireless but that’s not likely.
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Total nonsense. You can expect to turn the tension adjuster at least once after a new cable installation, but you should never have to make frequent adjustments. This is a typical complaint for the mechanically inept user - they can't figure out which way to turn the tension adjuster. If a couple of clicks every few weeks is more than you can handle, you probably should pay more for Di2 and keep using 11 speed. Even the electronic systems have the ability to tweak the derailleur movement.
I can't say enough good things about Campy 12 mechanical. I really like that my two chorus groups cost about the same as one force 12 group.
I can't say enough good things about Campy 12 mechanical. I really like that my two chorus groups cost about the same as one force 12 group.
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That's one of the few situations that would cause me to consider it.
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you shouldn't buy a frame that doesn't work with your preferred components. Not real smart.
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What causations in those scenarios lead to the need for adjustment? I don't put as many miles on a bike as many here do and rarely ride in the rain but the 105 on my 2017 Roubaix SL4 bought NOS in 2019 has never needed an adjustment outside of the first adjustment a few hundred miles in.
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What causations in those scenarios lead to the need for adjustment? I don't put as many miles on a bike as many here do and rarely ride in the rain but the 105 on my 2017 Roubaix SL4 bought NOS in 2019 has never needed an adjustment outside of the first adjustment a few hundred miles in.
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My primary motivation in moving to AXS was to get the 33/33 combo for climbing. I got tired of mashing at low RPM on some of the steep climbs around here. That’s a big advantage.
I guess the reason I started the thread was to see if others had 1-2 skipped shifts per ride and if they were able to eliminate it. Once an hour or so. Again, not a big deal. I can’t imagine pros on the world tour dealing with that, so it must be possible to eliminate it. Eliminating that skip would make it a fantastic group set I think. My only other small change would be to shrink the hoods, but it’s hard to make a groupset that works for everyone.
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Custom Ti frame bought in 2009. Current tech like hydraulic discs and electronic shifting were not really a consideration back then. It’s a great bike so moving over to electronic shifting is my goal, possibly.
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If I had a custom Ti frame, I'd ask the builder for advice on outfitting it for electronic shifting. The problem is that no one knows if Shimano intends to go wireless when they update to 12 speed. I've read of others considering adding rear disc mounts and a new fork for an older Ti frame.
You'll probably need new wheels to get an XDR or microspline hub.
You'll probably need new wheels to get an XDR or microspline hub.
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I have a friend who rides 12,000 miles a year. He has his cables replaced two to three times a year. The more you ride, the more you shift. The more you ride in the rain, the more likely your cables will get water in them, which causes corrosion. One Di2 first came out, there was a video where team mechanics were asked about what they liked most about Di2 and it was that there was no need to do adjustments once the bike was setup.
I wasn't keen on AXS for some of the reasons listed here, di2 shifting is smoother, hoods are smaller/more comfortable. Also, the three bikes I saw in person with AXS were all noisy, could have just been the setup, but it was just one more reason to for me to go di2. Wireless is the only real plus I can see, and only if you need it, like datlas trying to retrofit an older frame. Once it's built, wires aren't an issue for me.
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I also have a 5 year old bike that I built for Di2. After I upgraded my other mechanical bike to eTap to go electronic, I discovered I liked it so much that I replaced the Di2 drivetrain with eTap and sold the Di2 parts. Since then I've built a new bike also with eTap for travel and my wife's new bike was built up with an AXS eTap. What I like about eTap (besides that it works well) is that the installations are so clean, the single paddle shifters are easier to shift with heavy gloves on (we live in the north and ride a lot when it's cold). For travel, it's hard to beat eTap for disassembly to pack your bike.
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I also went electronic after destroying cables 2-3 times a year. I’ve never had any SRAM stuff before AXS so I can’t comment on their previous group sets but so far Force AXS has been flawless in my limited experience.