rootboy 

Cool. Look at that thing. I'm thinking mine might come in handy some day ...as a can opener. Or a weapon.

bibliobob

I had a 73ish Raleigh Super course that had both the seat binder bolt and also the same on the Campy Velox RD. FWIW.

rootboy 

And what the Hell is that gear shifter assembly in that catalog scan? Comando Elephante? For controling your elephant ? I have a cat #16, I think it is, but that strange gizmo aint in it, I don't think. Anybody ever seen one in the wild?

jimmuller 

I think the Klingons used something like that device on the left for bicycle combat during mating season.

lostarchitect 

Looks like a crazy huge top tube shifter. I've seen things like this on old schwinns, but never campy.

sailorbenjamin

Funny, my Carlton has Campy deraillers, too. Someone should reproduce these little red stickers.
BTW, what kind of Carlton is this? I've got that same seat cluster on mine and I can't identify it.
I had to clean this up before I painted it but here's a before pic;

realestvin7

I've seen that cluster on many different Raleighs. I've seen Grand Prix's with them for sure.

jbkirby

Don't feel bad, I just re-opened the match. Also, I saw it on an old Carlton bicycle's quill stem bolt. I first saw it on my 1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer. Sheeesh!

unworthy1

It's curious, but I always assumed the "C" to stand for Carlton (and yes they did make their own lugs, but that's another topic) since Raleigh was ever so keen to use the Carlton name as much as possible to elevate their image in the UK market (if not elsewhere): Carlton was a higher quality brand than Raleigh. Raleigh used the "R" on many binder bolt heads, Lambert had an "L", I'd be surprised if Campy supplied them (these were not even Metric, IIRC) and they only showed up on the Velox and Gran Turismo POS RDs, not any seat binder bolt that Campy offered. So why would they enter into a deal just to supply this one item to Raleigh? That was not even their exclusive UK importer (Holdsworth was).
I'm saying that Campy copied the (Carlton) bolt caps for their RDs.
I am working on a 1970 Raleigh right now that has a "R" red binder cap nut, so this definitely precedes the Rampar era.
One last question: has anybody seen this "C" binder bolt cap on an Italian gas-pipe job that came with the cheap'n'nasty Campy drivetrain of the '70s (like an Atala, Chiorda, cheap Olmo, cheap Bianchi, etc.)?

cudak888 

The Lambert/Viscount "L" and "V" nuts differ in overall shape from the "C" and "R" nuts. On the other hand, the "C" and "R" nuts are surprisingly similar.

I wouldn't be surprised if Raleigh requested Campagnolo to supply just the caps, sans nuts; for future installation into Raleigh's own nuts at the (EDIT: Worksop) factory.

-Kurt

unworthy1

That's plausible...but still an odd sidebar in the Bicycle History Book if true. (and maybe it would be for Worksop, not Nottingham...or maybe both)

rootboy 

Certainly possible. And maybe they supplied them to Schwinn as well ? Odd little cycling lore tidbit.

ericbaker

I vote campy, heres my bottechia

cudak888 

Supplied what? The RD or the bolt?

We already know all the Gran Turismo RD's came with "C" markings; regardless of the brand of bike they were fitted.

-Kurt

jan nikolajsen 

If, as has been suggested, Campy did the 'C' button exclusively for the Carlton/Raleigh empire, well, then these derailleurs would only appear on that marque. But we believe they were also OEM on Schwinn and Bottecchia. Ergo it stands for something other than Carlton. Campagnolo maybe.

Now, the seat and stem bolt with the same button on them, that's the thing throwing everything off in this puzzle. Campy did these too? Seems like the only viable explanation. Are they in the old catalogs?

It is also interesting to note that the 'C' graphic is a completely different style than anything I have seen associated with Campy logos.

unworthy1

This actually is a good example of an Italian boom-bike with the Gran Turismo RD, matching push-rod FD, yet it does not have a "C" nut on the seat binder bolt...I'd venture it also does not have a "C" on the stem center bolt or stem clamp bolt, either.

unworthy1

The font doesn't look like most of the Carlton decals, either (though there's one from the '70s, that I can't find a good pic of, that may come close) but shares some characteristics of this Melton
https://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=300366718532
(pic from a decal set by Greg Softley)

ericbaker

none on the seat binder or stem bolt.

Mike Mills

.nm.

Stronglight56

This has been driving me a bit batty for some time, for over a decade, actually. I ran across and watched updates on this thread when it was new, and nearly 10 years on, I finally joined the forum here. I see people comment that this mystery has been solved - I've seen lots of conjecture and opinion but from my POV, no real resolution. I’ve often wondered how to contact someone at Campagnolo to get to the bottom of it. Is it planned? Pure coincidence? Was there ever a cease and desist letter sent in either direction over trademark infringement?

So, I realize this is an ancient thread but, you know, COVID-19, isolation, lots of time wrenching on bikes alone in my head to concern myself with trivialities like ‘C’ nuts as I continue the search for a Carlton seat binder bolt that isn’t $40 + $15 postage. Honestly, the Motobecane ‘M’ nut is reasonably priced at $9 with free shipping.


Clockwise from top left, Motobecane, Schwinn, Raleigh, Arnold Schwinn. Turn the ‘M’ upside down and you could claim it stands for Waterford.

Then, below there’s the Viscount ‘V’ nut and the Sun Cycles ‘S’ nut.




Some time ago, I got my hands on a Normandy hub that has the same emblem on the nuts. The seller said it was from a Carlton-built Raleigh Grand Prix. For years, I've seen it referenced as a Carlton 'C' nut. Here are some photos of the hub and the nut design. The grease was so dried and headed toward powder that I imagine it was original to the manufacturer... at least it was very old - I've never checked the thread pitch - I'm going to do that and update it here. When I cleaned and repacked the hub, there was no campy stamp or patent on the axel... That is so un-campy not to put their name and patent all over the component, at least from what I've experienced. I really, really hoped there would be and that would be the end of the question.



‘C’ nut from a hub that was on a Worksop Carlton-built Raleigh. Note the red space inside the upper serif of the C.


Views above and below of the Normandy hub with the ‘C’ nut.

(Above) The Normandy hub stamp and another view of the ‘C’ nut. Hmmmm, was Campagnolo producing nuts for Normandy too? I’ve seen a number of these Normandy hubs with ‘C’ nuts pictured on Carltons and Raleigh-Carltons and they appear around the same time Campagnolo rolled out the Gran Turismo derailers. Another hmmmmm.


Here’s a seat binder bolt found on a Carlton-built Grand Prix - again, note the red space in the upper serif.

So, in the image of the Campy RD below, it’s on a smaller bolt head. I get that maybe, MAYBE because it’s smaller, there is no way to print the gap in the serif - but I doubt it, it’s not that small technology in the late 60s was capable of creating that small serif with an open center. There are small details in the tiny campy logos stamped in derailers and hubs that have far more crisp detail than that C on the Grand Turismo. Wee decals and head badges, heck the Carlton rider head badge has better small detail than that Grand Turismo ‘C’ - and by the way, has anyone else noted that the ‘C‘ looks rather a lot like the Carlton rider?


The Carlton Rider logo - the ‘C’ on their nuts looks like a stylized version of a rider’s head, shoulders and arms reaching out to handlebars.


But I do get that the similarities between the two companies’ ‘C’ nuts are just TOO close to be a coincidence, maybe it’s a fastener manufacturer who said to campy, ‘oh yeah, we can make a ‘C’ bolt head for ya, suuuure we can!’ and didn’t bother to mention they were already making them for Carlton too.... stranger things have happened. High end wine producers sell unbottled wine that doesn’t make the cut on the bulk market and it gets reblended, bottled, labeled and sold as someone else’s wine - it happens all the time. Could there be a market for bulk letter nuts rebranded across the bicycle market?


I’ve been curiously studying images of these Campagnolo Gran Turismo RDs and found the upper serif is consistently solid on them. When it’s a nut from a Carlton, that upper serif is consistently open. Tullio Campagnolo did produce a very similar, striped down RD without the red ‘C’ nuts and named it after his son. Odd that, because I think most of us would opt to put our son’s names on something that has a lot of grace, style and Is at the top of our line. The Valentino and Gran Turismo strike me as rather ‘meh.’ (See below)



The Valentino Extra.

Regarding print size and logo integrity: I work for a company that has a heraldic lion logo with a little eye and pupil that usually doesn’t show up well when printed small (see below). We ended up eventually updating our logo because it was a pain in the ass getting it right and done to our standards. It drove printers(and us) insane. We've always been DOGGED about making sure our logo is always facing the correct direction and that the eye gets clearly printed; there is no compromising the integrity of our brand logo, especially when it goes on our products. If it’s too small to print properly, we make size adjustments until it’s right. We have a brand standards document that spells it all out, Pantone color, direction, the necessary gaps to show up correctly, we even try and police online resolution - that one is hard. They'd probably **** if they knew I put this old photo up. Someone lets a substandard lion slip into the market, hands are smacked and heads roll.




I just have difficulty imagining a brand like Campagnolo not being equally as uptight about consistency in how their ‘C’ nuts or any of their logos would be reproduced. It's a bit like Ferrari allowing Fiat Chrysler to put Ferrari logoed nuts on Fiats, and a few Chrysler models... a bit - I know the analogy is off. I also think they’d lawyer-up like crazy if another brand had the same basic logo and was using it without some contractual agreement that spelled out strict quality control. But then again, I can see how they wouldn’t want to alienate a mass-producing behemoth and customer like TI Raleigh. Oh, and they did seem to have no issue producing the Valentino rear derailleur which although (I hear) solidly engineered, hardly meets their aesthetic standard. So who knows? Someone who worked at Campagnolo or Carlton back then, or maybe the company that actually made all these red and white lettered nuts and bolts. Unfortunately, all those people are vanishing fast. So is there anyone out there who designed, approved, manufactured, or wrenched these nuts onto new machines in the Worksop or Campagnolo workshop? Hello? Bueller? Bueller? Bueller?

steve sumner

I found a tell-tale difference between the two logos. The Carlton seatpost binder
and axle nut has a small cutout at the top leg and end of the C and the Campy
derailleur bolts do not. very similar but not the same!

branko_76 

great work guys! Now it's time to go outside...