cleanrider

I thought there'd be a few more of us on the roads. I've only seen a handful of us. Let me hear from you. I want to know what your experience has been.

(Ronin)

It doesn't take long to figure out that they are garbage, Sold it for less than half of what i paid for it and was happy as hell.
Went to a crystalyte 5 series and can't believe i wasted the money on that POS scooter in the first place.
I dust scooters around here on a pretty regular basis now,and that's only at 36 volts..if i ran 48 volts like they have, it would be even more of a joke

karma

not good i only had mine half the summer and it fell apart.

charger is junk. one day it Decided to over charge the 4 12v 10ah batterys. i saved them just in time.
front forks are cracked not bad if you like going face first into the pavement.
wiring is garbage. no dc to dc converter 48volt bulbs burn out hard to find replacements.

only thing left on the bike worth saving is the brushless hub controller and batterys.

total waste of money

problem with these bikes is Quality control. my first ride was fun after that it was all down hill. if there going to build it like a pocket bike price it as one

stokell

Those fake 'scooters' should be banned. It will happen by 2009 in Ontario. They are slow, dangerous and are being sold as bicycles when they plainly are not.

If you want to do an electric scooter then call it a scooter not a bicycle, license it and insure it and give it the speed to keep up with other scooters.

It's not an ebike!

jerryt

Cleanrider,
You would probably get support without prejudice at https://endless-sphere.com/forums/index.php or https://visforvoltage.org/ . Both forums have an open mind regarding electric scooters and bikes.

geebee

Actually legally it is an ebike and since alot of ebikers rarely use the pedals, what is the difference? other than people like your self being elitist.
They can be had cheap and can be a reliable form of transport with good storage and comfort, I actually have something similar and it rarely gets used due to the fact i like to pedal BUT it is handy when I am ill or injured and I will be interested in how they can ban these and not ebikes as mine has fully functional pedal that are used on steep hills.
Your aggitating for a ban could end up affecting general ebiking big time, you may cause the registration and licencing of all ebikes or just a total ban.
Mine is a few years old with 2 or 3 thousand k's on it and no issues.
I ride it as a bike and have never had a problem with traffic or cyclists.

cleanrider

the screws in the pedals are rusting. It's supposed to be rain worthy. The ride is so rough on any little bump that the pedals have fallen off at times. I have to keep screwing them on. The alarm keeps going off when a fire or police siren is near by. I hit a pot hole and the alarm went beserk. I had to disconnect it. Completely gutless on hills. Sometimes I just get off and jog it up myself. Sometimes when I have the steering locked, I can't unlock it. I have to keep jigging the key.

karma

heh i have the same problem with my ignition key. now the lock is loose lol

its really funny when your crossing a intersection and the bike turn off without my input. cars coming at you and your running
with a ebike between your legs. i think thats when i lost interest in it.

and my pedals also came off with my first ride. not just the pedals the crank arms also. my setup is push on pull off. but thay work better when thay fall off

cleanrider

I've put about 700 km on it. I don't know whether to cut my losses sell it in the spring. It's fine for the 3km trips to the No Frills for eggs and milk but that's about it. I need something really cheap to get around in. Maybe a smaller pedal assist bike. I dunno.

Abneycat

Well, if it works for you, then it works = ) don't end up changing off if you don't need anything more. On the other hand, if you long for being able to do more, go for it of course

Geebee, the thing about these things is that they're just not a great product in general. His concerns spur from their inability to safely or properly compete in the scooter class, while passing themselves legally in another vehicular class altogether - even while they're not really e-bikes.

Thats where my bone to pick comes from, so to say. These scooter bikes are just poor design. Too weak to truly enjoy as an electric scooter, too cumbersome and poorly designed to be enjoyed as a bicycle. A lot of them are of questionable quality. I'm often intrigued as to why there is a crowd of people who buy *bicycles*, then strap them with jury rigged motors and go through all the trouble, just to avoid pedaling.

There are some quite nice scooters and mopeds out their that feature the same mobility, but with a purpose designed chassis, safe, comfy, and practical. I don't consider people who don't make an attempt to enjoy the bicycle in e-bike to be e-bikers, rather they're scooter owners who are legally obligated to have pedals in order to avoid registration costs.

There's no elitism in what I want to see: I respect anyone's desire to have an alternative form of transportation. But i'd like to see proper equipment being offered to those with the desire, and so many of these vehicles just don't cut it.

geebee

The elitist remark was toward the poster that also contacted the goverment (another post) to have these banned which I suspect may have more reaching consequences.
In some countries ie. OZ at least n my state you require a full motorcycle licence to ride all (including 50cc ones) mopeds, scooters etc. they also require full rego and insurance.

(Ronin)

5 series crystalyte..you will be in awe of the performance difference

stokell

If I understand correctly what you are saying is:
"I made the remark about someone being 'elitist' because the member contacted the government to have e-scooters banned based on existing law. In Australia, or at least in my state escooters require a full motorcycle license and insurance, including those vehicles with 50 cc petrol engines."

If that is the case, how is it you see me as "elitist"?

geebee

Try quoting accurately and it will make sense.
You wish low powered e-scooters banned from being classed as e-bikes, the definition between the 2 is very very fine.
If the goverment can ban the low powered e-scoots I suspect the e-bikes will be included, try legally wording it to dis-allow only scooter like e-bikes and not include any that you qualify as e-bikes in a manner that will be enforcable.
The elitism is that you are fine with your definition on an e-bike but only the bikes that you feel qualify, sounds a lot like the attitude of cyclists that scorn e-bikes, doesn't it? In what way are they currently illegal?
If they are banned for arguments sake in Oz then those that wish to ride them will have to jump through the hoops and spend a fortune as described in the previous post.

Abneycat

This is taken as part of the reply recieved by Lowell in the ministry's reply.

E-bikes, like conventional bikes, are designed to be propelled primarily by muscular power. We are aware of some scooters that have had non-operational pedals attached for aesthetic purposes, in an attempt to circumvent the licensing and insurance requirements for scooters. An e-bike must have pedals. If these are removed, it is no longer an e-bike. If stopped by police, a person riding one of these devices without pedals could face charges of having no licence plate and no insurance.

I don't think there's any elitism in what he's saying. To a degree, these systems go against the Ministry of Transportations own definition itself, that they're designed with pedals primarily to bypass laws and to be counted as an "e-bike"

When you look at the systems themselves, the pedals are attached and "functional", the latter term being used in a loose sense - these vehicles are not designed with adequate human propulsion in mind, and are quite literally marketed as e-bikes when they *are* indeed scooters, with a little legal bypass to put them into the e-bike category. Were I the Minister of Transportation, trust me geebee, I wouldn't allow them to be putting these things on the streets any more than these 60kph bicycles some people ride. Not without being known and licensed for what they properly are, which is scooters, mopeds, and motorbikes. These are no bicycles. Banned? no. But properly designed and registered *for what it is*, yes. Absolutely.

Its not a case of "lolol, stupid scooter e-bike", its a case of these things being utterly unsuitable as true bicycles, failed as e-bikes, and abusing the system. There comes a time when its *not* a bike anymore, and many of these systems *should* fall well beyond that threshold.

geebee

You do realise that alot of Sla bikes are barely functional without their assist especially in hilly terrain?
For legal purposes defining the cutoff point is going to be a nightmare?
I personally have no issue either way but think that anyone trying to seperate the 2 are going to cause problems for all.
For arguements sake if I fit an 8 speed hub to the drive on an e-scoot and some else has a single speed e-bike with long range sla's which one is legal under your definition?
Oh and all of them that I have seen have pedals that do work.

Abneycat

Karma mentions that the pedals are push on, push off on his model. That would certainly be one place to start. Apparently, they've not even got a decent locking mechanism, so a proper quick release like those on folding bicycle pedals would be a start.

Secondly, I've used a Crystalyte in tandem with a 48v/10a SLA pack that weighed about 40lbs total, and it wasn't too much to handle as a bicycle, so I don't personally believe that it takes a battery alone to reach the point of exclusion. Most non-cyclists I know of are unable to safely handle a weighted bicycle with more than 50-60lbs of equipment loaded on, and counting a high weight bicycle, say 40lbs, that puts a reasonable cycling limit at about 100lbs.

At the moment, the current unloaded weight limit is 75kg, a limit which has allowed riders to pack enough equipment onto their vehicles in order to make them fairly unsafe, and while I care for one's own right to endanger themselves, there is *no* such sympathy towards those who endanger others. In our local store, there's a booklet of various "e-bikes" all weighing in over 50kg, some packing it in right *at* the 75kg mark. I consider *that* to be too heavy to be acceptable. This isn't beginning to account for rider skill, true. But living in a state society, our legal boundaries are defined on a generic measure rather than an informal and restorative one: basically, the bottom line has to be one that covers the masses, not the exceptions.

While you say that "a lot of SLA vehicles are barely functional without their electric assist, particularily in hilly terrain", you have 3 reports of these vehicles breaking down right here in this thread, and one of them being unable to climb what sounds like a large variety of hills, and "being jogged up"

That sounds like barely functional *with* their electric assist.

Other vehicles go through some fairly strict quality control before hitting the streets, sadly this doesn't apply to these e-bikes and scooters. However, i'd like to see a less lenient weight limit, a proper power to weight ratio, and reliability testing performed before these products hit the shelves. There are already panels out there which perform the same task for other powered vehicles, it would simply be a matter of application.

As for your theoretical question, how much SLA do you have to pack onto a single speed bike in order to meet the weight of your e-scoot, and do you know the strength ratio of the average 8 speed internal hub? As long as the singlespeed was proven to be within the weight limit of its frame, I would consider it to be a far more reliable option, as these e-scoots are *proven* unreliable and overweight already.

Abneycat

Hm. I just looked at Veloteq's website actually, and all of their models (save one) are actually *over* the legal weight limit for an e-bike in Canada, in the first place, all by a kg or two.

My guess is that they shave a few pounds somewhere before shipping here. But now, back to that theoretical question, taking into account the average singlespeed, you'd need about 140lbs of SLA in order to have the same weight, which is something the average bicycle frame wouldn't withstand when put into play with the typical rider's weight.

A hub gearing system like a Nexus or an SRAM wouldn't stand that punishment for prolonged use either, not unless you used something like a P5 Cargo or a Rohloff.

75kg/165lbs is far too much for the average guy to call a rideable bike, when you consider that thats *base* functionality, not even starting to meet domestic purposes.

geebee

Sorry' I was basing the question around my e-scoot which weighs 40 kg ready to ride and is simple and reliable.
Mine has too wide a Q for comfort but there are several down here of similar weight and normal pedal Q (width) still fully faired scooters.
If pedaled with the assist why would the hub have issues?

I could easily tranfer the running gear into my folding bike the only advantage would be easier to pedal due to the lower Q and a weight drop of maybe 5Kg ~ 8kg's and a loss of suspension, storage compartments, weather protection, indicators, horn,lights etc.

Again this is my least used ride but how do you legislate one and not the other?

JeanCoutu

Ya know, one of my fantasies for a while has been a trike made to fit a lazyboy recliner chair with maybe something like a my1018 or something mounted on maybe a 3 speed hub, token pedals, beverage holders. The whole kitted out to be 100% legal as a power assist, since it's likely to get pulled over a lot. Man would that ever be cool.

Abneycat

Legislate one, but not the other? E-bikes are currently as legislated, as they should be, the guidelines are just considerably simpler than some other vehicular guidelines are. I don't wish to create a separate class, so much as make sure that these vehicles are properly placed in their correct categories. Forgive me, but I don't believe that 165lb scooters are correctly labeled as bicycles.

I've 2 formal, regulated suggestions, and one informal suggestion. One might say that this task is insurmountable, but government transportation agencies have long practiced the art of classification.

The simplest way would be to begin with requiring the manufacturer to provide proof that the pedals and drivetrain are not only functional but fully adequate for use in a consistent application. They'd need to have some sort of semi-permanent attachment system, like as mentioned - those featured on some folding bicycles.

Secondly, the weight limit needs to be revised and based upon the abilities of an "average" test group - no gathering up 30 seasoned bike tourers, i'm talking about pulling a pool of random subjects. Figure out what the typical reasonable weight limit is to take a bicycle through an obstacle course designed to test rider ability, and work with that number. I'm almost certain that a reasonable number for a typical 2 wheeled bicycle would be *nowhere* near the current limit of 165lbs at a low speed. There's a far cry between riding a 165lb motor vehicle and pedaling one, and no electric vehicle should be allowed to circumvent that distinction. Add a second classification for vehicles with 3 or more wheels, with the same electric restrictions and requirements, but a different distinct and tested weight limit.

Thirdly, quality control needs to be done. From what I understand, many of these things cost many times what a basic electric kit does, but provide poor value in comparison. While this is something that is difficult to enforce officially, in a sort of way its up to those who already have the experience in these products to help guide people - weed out bad ones, promote good ones. This is a relatively new field for North America, and unfortunately quality is something where minimal quality is often a disappointment for new buyers. Help people out with making good choices!

Digikid

Hello there....first time poster here.

I an a VERY happy owner of a Veloteq Cavalier. I will say now that there is no way in heck that you can convince me that they are "junk" when they are quite clearly the best ones in Canada to date. I have tried others....they do not come close. I have not had any problems whatsoever.

I will admit there are a few things that need to be addressed for future models. The pedals on my model are too far apart since the body is kinda wide...watching someone pedal result in hilarity for sure. They have never fallen off.....but I leave them off most of the time.

Going uphill is a joke....but a new motor that is coming out is going to fix that. I have already pre-ordered the new motor from a friend that works on these bikes.......and even he says that of all of the bikes that he has sold about 2% of them are Veloteqs.

Veloteq is a GREAT company. When I repainted my E-Bike ( NOT an E-Scooter ) I asked Veloteq to send me some replacement decals and asked how much they would cost. I gave them my address and a week later they send me a rather fat envelope....with contained FOUR sets of decals.....when I only asked for a couple. They sent me a simple letter with the decals:

Now THAT is a company that cares about its customers and products.

I am the ONLY one with a E-Bike in my town. Yet people love it!! They are all asking me where to get ones of their own and I tell them. It is winter here in Ontario so no one has any out but I am 100% sure that I will see more in the area.

karma

not to worry no one here is singling out any one company for the problems. its china made ebikes that make it over the border with Questionable Quality. im sure veloteq is a good company and thay did there homework before selling them. quality being there main Concern. dont forget if you live in canada by law
you need to ride with the pedals on. without you will get pulled over riding a unplatted moped. and the fines are high.

cheers

Digikid

Ah nuts. Those things are SUCH a nuisance but if they must be on then I will put them back on. They really need to fold in more or something because they love to drag on the ground when I turn.

Thanks for the heads up though. I appreciate it. How much would the fine be?

karma

thay rang from $250 to $2,500. one thing i did was make the two crank arms face the same way up. and
ran a piece of string to keep them from turning down. its within the law and its safe.

cheers